Can someone explain something about CVVC to me?

TheEternalChild7

Ruko's Ruffians
Defender of Defoko
Hi again, guys. Noob here.

Okay, so. I'm trying to figure out how to use CVVC voicebanks (specifically Japanese banks). But I keep running into issues. So I just want to make sure I understand the basic concepts correctly first. So. How exactly does CVVC work? I thought I had it figured out, but I don't know anymore.

Originally I thought that CVVC basically worked like a combination of a CV bank, a VCV bank, and consonant transitions. So I assumed that it would be possible for a CVVC bank to work with a VCV UST, and that you could modify consonant transitions and the like from there.

But now I'm confused, because some CVVC banks seem to work just fine on VCV USTs, others don't. And it seems to vary even within voicebanks. For example, Number Bronze's core Beach CVVC works just fine on VCV USTs, but if I use the Shell append via suffixes, only one out of every 10 notes or so will actually play. And if I try the Wave append, even the single note that worked with the Shell append won't play. Why could that be? Is this something that's specific to Number Bronze voicebanks, or am I just horribly misinterpreting CVVC in general? What am I doing wrong here?
 
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FelineWasteland

Feral Catboy
Defender of Defoko
CVVC voicebanks are more similar to CV than VCV. Essentially, it just means that each syllable has both a CV and a VC element. For example, the sample "kik" has both a "ki" and an "ik" alias, one being the standard CV, and the other functioning as either an ending consonant or a transition into the next sound, i.e. "the cat runs" would be written [in X-SAMPA] like "D@ k{ {t r@ @nz," with D@, k{, and r@ being CVs, and {t and @nz being VCs.

Japanese CVVC is usually recorded in strings like "あかきくけこ," containing the CVs か, き, く, け, and こ, the VCs ak, ik, uk, ek, and ok, and occasionally the VCVs a か, a き, i く, u け, and e こ, hence why some CVVC voicebanks will seem to work with VCV USTs. Many also feature VCV-style vowels in strings like "ああいあうあえ." In short, they are different than VCVs, but some contain what is essentially a lite VCV within them.

Overall, Japanese CVVC voicebanks tend to be a little... weird, and there's a lot of variation in the recording and otoing styles, but this is the general way that I've found.

Hope this helps!
 

TheEternalChild7

Ruko's Ruffians
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter
CVVC voicebanks are more similar to CV than VCV. Essentially, it just means that each syllable has both a CV and a VC element. For example, the sample "kik" has both a "ki" and an "ik" alias, one being the standard CV, and the other functioning as either an ending consonant or a transition into the next sound, i.e. "the cat runs" would be written [in X-SAMPA] like "D@ k{ {t r@ @nz," with D@, k{, and r@ being CVs, and {t and @nz being VCs.

Japanese CVVC is usually recorded in strings like "あかきくけこ," containing the CVs か, き, く, け, and こ, the VCs ak, ik, uk, ek, and ok, and occasionally the VCVs a か, a き, i く, u け, and e こ, hence why some CVVC voicebanks will seem to work with VCV USTs. Many also feature VCV-style vowels in strings like "ああいあうあえ." In short, they are different than VCVs, but some contain what is essentially a lite VCV within them.

Overall, Japanese CVVC voicebanks tend to be a little... weird, and there's a lot of variation in the recording and otoing styles, but this is the general way that I've found.

Hope this helps!

Oh... That... makes a bit more sense. Thank you for the explanation! I think I more or less get it now. We'll see, I guess, depending on whether or not I can make it work in practice.
 

Kiyoteru

UtaForum power user
Supporter
Defender of Defoko
Japanese CVVC voicebanks work by using the VC as a transitionary element, essentially recreating the complete "VCV" with two separate pieces. It's a lot more noticeable on consonants like K/T/P. You'll want to get the autoCVVC plugin to make using it easier.
 
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na4a4a

Outwardly Opinionated and Harshly Critical
Supporter
Defender of Defoko
CVVC Japanese banks are tradiitonally "diphone" banks.
Unlike CV, a CVVC bank can utilize a complete transition.

So instead of "ka ka" you have "ka a k ka". the "a k" sound having the natural vowel-to-consonant transition and is thus much smoother and more natural than a CV bank.
A VCV bank is similar but instead of an "a k" sound you use an "a ka" sound.
They will generally sound the same with a correct oto, VCV is just seen as easier to use but it's also a lot bigger.

So really CVVC is closer to VCV than it is to CV, but it's still different and used it's it's own way.
VCV samples in a CVVC bank are usually out of laziness or not knowing how to oto the CVVC version of the sounds/cheating, CVVC banks will generally have no VCV at all.
 

TheEternalChild7

Ruko's Ruffians
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter

Okay, now I understand. Thank you all so much for explaining this. It's ridiculous how difficult it is to find any explanations or tutorials about this stuff anywhere.
And thanks for the link; that's definitely going to help a lot. x_x
 
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tavionte

Teto's Territory
Defender of Defoko
Okay, now I understand. Thank you all so much for explaining this. It's ridiculous how difficult it is to find any explanations or tutorials about this stuff anywhere.
And thanks for the link; that's definitely going to help a lot. x_x
just don't have any subfixs and have a cvvc open when using it
 
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