Attitude in the Community.

Zoku

making doper vocaloid music than the rest
Defender of Defoko
When I first registered on UtaForum, albeit illegally, at age 10 on the Zetaboard site in 2011, I knew that this community would be different.

Sure, you say. How could a ten year old know?

I'm sure many of you were like that young me. A curious child thinking of exploring a curious world.

I had previously explored the internet, believe it or not. I joined other online forums under a different alias, many times. I was not so scared to look through what others had to say.

But I had always seen the Internet at the point as some mysterious wide open field, with no limits on who you can be. You could be... well, you. You didn't really need to hide (except for your face and personal info), you could express yourself in ways beyond what you and I could think of.

I felt that the Vocaloid and UTAU community was different from that--you could express yourself in way more ways. You had your own personal singing voice! There was a welcoming, warm community! People were free to say what they wished and had no quarrels because they had only good things to say.

It's been five years. Five years since that little me joined UtaForum to explore something he loved.

I am now approaching the age of 15, hitting it in less than two months, in September. I have matured since I was 10. I have seen things that would last me a lifetime (though I will not go more than that). I realized that I like the same gender. I found myself advocating for feminism and wanting to fight against that gap between male and female, between black and white which I had thought had been defeated long ago.

More importantly, I have seen this community change.

The community that I came into was more or less a 'fan community'. We cared less about the creation of things--more about the consumption of things. Back in the earlier days, we wanted more covers of the things we loved, rather than venturing out there and challenging ourselves. Of course, I was not one of the first UTAU fans. There were those before me, the first western fans back in 2008 or 2009. Hell, there could've fans of LoliEdit. Despite those before me, I like to fancy myself to be a somewhat second-generation wave of UTAU users.

But time has passed. Times have changed. People's attitudes have changed.

Today, this community has become much more creator-orientated. We don't care as much about your first CV UTAU as we might have 5 years ago. We crave so much more than the generic plug-n-play covers. We don't care about the song that's been covered a million times before with the same singer and instrumental and version. We applaud the small achievements, but in the end we no longer see any worth in those first achievements other than the fact that those will lead to something bigger.

Those ridiculous jokes about how people only care about 'kire multi-pitch multi-append VCV banks'? Upon thinking about them a bit, maybe they're not that far off.

They probably aren't even a quarter of a foot off since we are now so competitive.

Everybody is scrambling to get to the top. A lot of users now don't care about doing stuff for the hell of it or because they want to. They desperately want that attention, that popularity because--let's face it--the only time you will really have people come to defend you is either A. you have strong friends on top, B. you have a lot of followers, or the elusive C. you are blessed to have friends that might be able to make a mark. People want to become the next big thing. Some would do anything to get there.

Some would even do as much to attempt to deface someone, ruin their reputation, destroy their emotional being. I'm not saying I've seen anyone do it personally, I'm just saying I know a few times where this could've been used as a description in some aspects. And I know a hell of a lot of people that are willing to do it when they have a chance.

Willing to strike at defenseless, weak, and vulnerable moment. Not even bearing to think to read the other's side of the story, or thinking about what could have been happening.

You know, that's the thing. People think 'they don't show it, so they must not be going through something,' instead of 'they might be going through something, I don't know.'

We are so selfish and so quick to jump to revenge when we don't even know if our freaking words that we freaking typed are the last words that person will ever see before the off themselves.

(Please don't take this the wrong way. I support pulling receipts when it's about something that's legitimately bad. I don't like when people use them simply for the sake of ruining someone's reputation, especially when that someone is pushing to become a better person.)

We are so competitive, whether we choose to accept it or not.

For us, it's either 'do that, or you're horrible at UTAU/Vocaloid/CeViO/vocal synth/music making/etc.' Some will say, 'Your opinion is different? haha wtf you are a terrible person, why would you even come close to thinking that? that is the worst thing I've heard ever. Your works are trash.' Believe me when I say I know at least one person that would say these things and a hundred others that are thinking the same thing.

Others will disagree with what I have to say. I am fine with that. But you know that community I came into at age 10?

That
community that I came into, the community that I loved and considered my internet home... is gone.

I don't want to see it gone.

I know it's selfish to want something to not change, but I think I might be asking for quite the opposite.

I don't know why we have become so competitive. Hell, I'm competitive af at times. I'm ready to pounce on drama at times, even when I know it's wrong.

I just want everybody to chill for one goddamn minute, take a deep breath, and actually think about different perspectives other than yours for once. That includes myself.


..when I first registered on UtaForum, albeit illegally, at age 10 on the Zetaboard site in 2011, I knew that this community would be different. I didn't think it would be different as I aged. But everything changes.

I just don't want this community to change into something utterly toxic.

And I hope you understand that everything is all about your perspective and your attitude.

All about your attitude in this community.

Thank you.

---

I don't want this to start arguments. This is somewhat of my own opinion/analysis piece of what I've been seeing in the community. Too many people are getting too passive aggressive and competitive about UTAU.

I want this to start a new discussion and a new conversation about how the community feels around experienced and new users. I want to know how people feel. This doesn't just apply to the UTAU community.
 

Avalia-Kasa

probably a potato tbh
Supporter
Defender of Defoko
I agree that the community has become a bit competitive, but in some ways I feel that it can be a good thing. To ask people to challenge themselves makes not only their work better, but helps them grow as a person.

I haven't been on Utaforum as much, but as a producer it's really nice to see much more original content; it's really refreshing. For new users, regardless of whether you're tired of the song or not, you should always praise them for their first tries no matter what, though. It's always amazing to see people take their first steps.

I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I think it's a mixed situation, so I get you. I definitely agree with how some people are so vocal about "this is the way a voicebank should be, VCV multipitch." The attitudes of some people need to change in that respect, from forcing someone to do something to lightly suggesting it.
 

SOHBlue

Master of Doom
Defender of Defoko
(Warning, this is WAY too long, my points are underlined. I also knows me some BB Code now and I speech-to-texted this bad jazz at 1 AM when I'm a tad loopy so...You've been warned...)

Hello, Zoku, I’m actually kind of glad you brought this up since I was thinking of saying something myself…


I've only just joined this community in the spring of this year, so I can't really speak for how it was 5 years ago or however long it's been around. I do know that I can relate to what you were saying about it being kinder it first, because when I first joined-even though I was just another newcomer at the time and technically I still am-there were still friendly people and the I got the help that I needed to get UTAU working when I was kind of dumb and couldn't really figure it out (not that I'm not still kind of dumb when it comes to UTAU or anything technological).


The community to me has been helpful and welcoming. Even when there were more difficult times for everybody and when it would get more personal than just about the program and projects, people would still come together and they would support each other. That's what I love about this community more than really all of the skills and special things about it, is that it can be very supportive and I love being a part of that. Seeing people creating new things and sharing it and being able to support the person who made it is a nice feeling to me.


What I love especially is that you can have just one particular skill or talent and work with other people who have other abilities and make something great. And even if you're like me to where you can likely do most things yourself and don't particularly like to bother people with your projects, you can still learn a lot from the multiple parts and people there are when it comes to UTAU.


As for drama, misunderstandings and normal spats that just happen in any sort of social structure, I really don't mind that too much because it's to be expected. Like you said, everybody is at least a little bit competitive. Even if it's just to see who can do what that's the most noticeable, there's naturally going to be competition. Especially since this is something that deals with music and art which are rather competitive things to deal with. The only thing that really matters to me even though I am someone who's working on my own projects is that everybody knows that what they're doing counts. Even if it's their first project or if it's something they've been working on for a long time and even if it may seem like I'm insincere when I'm supporting other people-I do mean it and I enjoy doing it. This community is especially creative and friendly and I just like it. It's a nice place to be.


What bothers me now is that it's mostly been rather uninspired at the moment. There hasn't been as much support anymore, people will always be saying “I suck at this” and “I'm not good at that” and of course the right thing to do is to counter that because everybody has something to bring to the table. As I said, that's the beauty part of this community, there are multiple skills and talents and abilities that go into making UTAU what it is.


From drawing and writing to creating a character, to singing and having your own sort of production and project and even to programming. Everybody can do something with a thing like this. To me it just shows that no matter what you know or how much experience you have or what you're aiming to do, you can still be a part of it. It’s almost similar to YouTube honestly , and if you’ve been keeping up with what goes on there, it's similar to what's going on here. Right now the creators are also getting more personal about it and it's more about publicity then it is personal creativity. To me, it doesn't matter how many followers you have as long as you get some sort of appreciation or acknowledgement. Even though I can't do much with my own work now and even though I'm struggling myself, again what I enjoy doing is being supportive.


I suppose I sound like I'm rambling now, and that's because I am! If it weren't for this community, I wouldn't be speaking into my microphone right now to type this. Even though it does have its rough spots just like anything and even though the program itself can be hard to work with, I just love the sense of being there for each other and supporting each other's goals that comes with this.


I also don't want this to become something that's only about creating commercial things and gaining fame-and I'm not going to go into the argument that commercial anything and more than a little popularity makes someone a sell-out or what have you. What bothers me most is that some are becoming so discouraged now that UTAU has just become a chore, it's no longer something for fun and it's something that just seems to bring stress. So many people are also leaving for a while just because they're so worried about their work, and that's not what this should be about. I think it should still be enjoyable and I still find enjoyment in it even if I'm not able to work as hard as I wish to.


That aside I have gone and spoken a lot and now there are more paragraphs than I could have done with just my fingers, so thank you guys because now I have the power to speak and speak and speak and then post it here as a giant rambling mess... so good job. ^_^b


As for individuals and myself, the important thing to me is that nobody feels ignored or left out. that's what I love most about this site, it's hard to be left out because there are so many sides and parts to whatever project you have. Even if you're like me and you don't make UTAU, you could at least do art for somebody or help write or even just know what you're doing with the programming, and again to me that's just the beauty part.


So in conclusion to this mess, I've also come to love this community (feels like I'm saying that way too much) and I do hope that it gets back to being supportive when everybody's feeling well enough and have more work to show. Me being me, I am of course going to praise it in whatever way I can... which is cringy because like many on this site, I am socially awkward.


Anywho, praise Ruko and goodnight! *derps away*


Also, I can't leave without a gif to distract from my oddness, so here you are!
spoiler]   As for individuals and myself,  the important thing to me is that nobody feels ignored or left out.  that's what I love most about this site,  it's hard to be left out because there are so many sides and parts to whatever project you have.  Even if you're like me and you don't make UTAU,  you could at least do art for somebody or help write or even just know what you're doing with the programming, and again to me that's just the beauty part.   So in conclusion to this mess,  I've also come to love this community (feels like I'm saying that way too much) and I do hope that it gets back to being supportive when everybody's feeling well enough and have more work to show. Me being me, I am of course going to praise it in whatever way I can... which is cringy because like many on this site, I am socially awkward.   Anywho, praise Ruko and goodnight! *derps away*
teto-dance-o.gif
 
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Mougeki Mero

Defoko's Slaves
Defender of Defoko
I am still new to the community, thought just like you, I played with UTAU since 10 (we are the same age).

At the start (10~13 year old) açl I did was songs with Hakaine Maiko because I loved her XD And I did everything just cause I liked it. But time passed, and I received many...negative comments. There was once a perspn who said that would dislike every video of mine. They did, but I didn't care...
IDK what exactly made me change my attitudes, but I started making covers for others, just to get popular...(imo, they were bad, but back then I didn't realize). But then I got tired of doing what I didn't like...And last year I started doing the things I liked again.

But truth must be faced: for those who seek popularity with your VB, it will be hard. The newbies just join cause of Teto, Ritsu and vippers. Or Rare VBs (matsudappoiyo and Macnes).

On Japan they welcome the new VBs happier, but they still prefer the famous ones.
 

Cine

Certified paint water drinker.
Defender of Defoko
A lot of this really is just standard fare when it comes to communities centered around something artsitic. The western UTAU community just got large enough for it to manifest.

I've wished a few times that I'd joined the community in 2011, but I didn't even know the forums existed. ( And unlike you I was 13.) I had an audience of 3 on youtube then and absolutley no helping advice on how to improve/ any contact at all from others. I still make the covers I want to, but I am admittedly a person who craves praise.
I've been an artist longer than an UTAU user and with art there is a commonly held belief that everything you create will look ugly to you, but better to everyone else, this worry unfortunatley carries over to my covers.

I need to know if other people find my work good, it validates my effort and my drive to make each cover sound as good as possible. I'm not doing each cover for the sake of fame, not at all. I'm still having fun, but pushing my techical skills with banks and working extra hard is also something I find fun.

Viewcounts mean feedback, and feedback is something I need to know if I've learned anything at all in these past few years. But that's just my own experience.
 

Kitcat190

Defoko's Slaves
Defender of Defoko
I've been in here since 2012-13, around 3 years or so, and have seen a lot of the good and bad. Literally starting from the bottom-(shitty paint art, audacity, playstation mic). I've also seen users rise and fall, friends leave and new ones join.

Basically my "attitude in the community" is just "I'm here to have fun"

Whether it be chatting, creating art, banks, covers, videos ect. I'm not here to make others do things for me, I've never been like that. I knew from the start I had to do things myself, I wasn't going to bother other people and instead was able to gain some skill. With that i was able to enjoy everything much more thoroughly than I would otherwise.

The community has diverse users, none of them are the same just like out in everyday life. So it's not unexpected to find disagreeing opinions, those who joke too much or too less, laid back verses energetic. So nothing is a surprise to me really, I always try to get along with everyone and enjoy everyone's taste of humor. In the later years I've been really relaxed so my mind set is to really just be myself, which is "silly" basically. (apparently im salty af)
An important rule to learn and know is people can have their own opinions, but people are never obligated to agree/respect the opinions.

I have noticed a change in the community as in there's no longer (for the most part) blindly going in and pressing buttons, plug and play, poor mixing. Most people know what to do for the most part, they know what sounds good, what's on and off key, the types of voicebanks that don't sound like every other one ect.

To me that's a good thing because that just means there's more room for improvement and a lot of growth. I don't really see most things as competition or jealousy, rather if something is done poorly, it's done poorly. It's obvious when something has been completed in 10 minutes with minimum knowledge and or effort, verses something that had taken hours and hours to complete.

From what I've seen over the years, and what others have noticed as well - More people tend to flock to other users who are genuinely enjoying their work, and are producing OK results. Verses someone who's obviously in it for some kind of gain of popularity and exposure, too full of themselves, too serious to the point where it's off putting, too invested in themselves and only them. All that jazz. These users seem to be the ones everyone agrees just doesn't seem happy to be here when no one gives them attention.

I agree with Cign about feedback as well, the more feedback, the more growth, the more growth, the better results. It's all about being open minded while still being you. If someone honestly doesn't like something, that's no problem, they just don't like it. But if someone is being a lil shit and just being rude, that's on them. It's important to know the difference between constructive criticism, honest opinions ect. and then just unhelpful nonsense. I know how it feels to not get any feedback, good or bad on something.

It's also another thing to share your content, but you need to do it tastefully. Not like an annoying pop up add. It's fine to share your work by all means, maybe even popping your work in every once and a while for fun. But no one likes a constant flow of "LOOK AT ME"

There are quite a few users that have had experience with music outside the community that come in and see all the misinformation to the point to where it's cringe worthy. So being open to real knowledge and not something read online with a stamp of approval from whomever is nice to take in.

To me, this community is not really toxic. More like plain with a hint of salt.

And like I said, it seems most complaints are by those who are either neglected from no feedback, or those who are trying a bit too hard and not truly enjoying themselves. (Not saying you or anyone reading this is subject to this but it is common) There will be different opinions, I know a few users that see everything the complete opposite of the main post. So it's all up to perspective.
But what do i know, apparently I am a pot-head elitist.
 

HoneyPai

Defoko's Slaves
Defender of Defoko
I've been in here since 2012-13, around 3 years or so, and have seen a lot of the good and bad. Literally starting from the bottom-(shitty paint art, audacity, playstation mic). I've also seen users rise and fall, friends leave and new ones join.

Basically my "attitude in the community" is just "I'm here to have fun"

Whether it be chatting, creating art, banks, covers, videos ect. I'm not here to make others do things for me, I've never been like that. I knew from the start I had to do things myself, I wasn't going to bother other people and instead was able to gain some skill. With that i was able to enjoy everything much more thoroughly than I would otherwise.

The community has diverse users, none of them are the same just like out in everyday life. So it's not unexpected to find disagreeing opinions, those who joke too much or too less, laid back verses energetic. So nothing is a surprise to me really, I always try to get along with everyone and enjoy everyone's taste of humor. In the later years I've been really relaxed so my mind set is to really just be myself, which is "silly" basically. (apparently im salty af)
An important rule to learn and know is people can have their own opinions, but people are never obligated to agree/respect the opinions.

I have noticed a change in the community as in there's no longer (for the most part) blindly going in and pressing buttons, plug and play, poor mixing. Most people know what to do for the most part, they know what sounds good, what's on and off key, the types of voicebanks that don't sound like every other one ect.

To me that's a good thing because that just means there's more room for improvement and a lot of growth. I don't really see most things as competition or jealousy, rather if something is done poorly, it's done poorly. It's obvious when something has been completed in 10 minutes with minimum knowledge and or effort, verses something that had taken hours and hours to complete.

From what I've seen over the years, and what others have noticed as well - More people tend to flock to other users who are genuinely enjoying their work, and are producing OK results. Verses someone who's obviously in it for some kind of gain of popularity and exposure, too full of themselves, too serious to the point where it's off putting, too invested in themselves and only them. All that jazz. These users seem to be the ones everyone agrees just doesn't seem happy to be here when no one gives them attention.

I agree with Cign about feedback as well, the more feedback, the more growth, the more growth, the better results. It's all about being open minded while still being you. If someone honestly doesn't like something, that's no problem, they just don't like it. But if someone is being a lil shit and just being rude, that's on them. It's important to know the difference between constructive criticism, honest opinions ect. and then just unhelpful nonsense. I know how it feels to not get any feedback, good or bad on something.

It's also another thing to share your content, but you need to do it tastefully. Not like an annoying pop up add. It's fine to share your work by all means, maybe even popping your work in every once and a while for fun. But no one likes a constant flow of "LOOK AT ME"

There are quite a few users that have had experience with music outside the community that come in and see all the misinformation to the point to where it's cringe worthy. So being open to real knowledge and not something read online with a stamp of approval from whomever is nice to take in.

To me, this community is not really toxic. More like plain with a hint of salt.

And like I said, it seems most complaints are by those who are either neglected from no feedback, or those who are trying a bit too hard and not truly enjoying themselves. (Not saying you or anyone reading this is subject to this but it is common) There will be different opinions, I know a few users that see everything the complete opposite of the main post. So it's all up to perspective.
But what do i know, apparently I am a pot-head elitist.
This here is gold and accurate
 

Blackbird

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
To me, this community is not really toxic. More like plain with a hint of salt.

lays-lightly-salted.png



but to be serious i don't really see this as being too much of an issue. As someone who makes music i am all too familiar with the phenomenon in which people try to play the role of the "helping teacher" often when they don't quiet understand the topic enough themselves, which leads to misinformation and drama. but that's something that occurs a lot on the internet so there's probably nothing anyone can do about it happening here unfortunately.

as to the competitive nature in which the thread initially describes i actually don't see that attitude quiet often, or at least within the people who talk to me. Most of the kind of problems i see comes from misinformation
 
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HoneyPai

Defoko's Slaves
Defender of Defoko
I actually don't see the competitive nature either
The only time I've seen people be remotely competitive was when CZ released the vccv english reclist. But that was more of Who can get their vccv bank out first.
But even then, that's a personal thought.
Now what i do see a lot more of is people getting upset when they spam their works and no one listens, it's like alice said, it's like pop ups you can't turn off
I also see a lot of people getting upset when their utau isn't noticed immediately, i personally think it's less competition and more of people maybe just wanting views/plays handed to them?

EDIT
Now if we were to talk about mics,
That's where i see the competition. With that, the mic competition seems like it's less about utau itself and more who has best mic
And tbh i don't see why that matters as long as you have fun recording and doing what you do
 
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RaccoonButler

Founder of The Church of Mawarine Shuu
Defender of Defoko
Tbh I see everyone talking about this, mostly long time users, but never actually see it. Idk what assholes you've been hanging around with but all the people I've met are completely cool in this aspect lel

But in seriousness, I have noticed that older users are the ones who talk about this change in attitudes the most but all the new users I see are still happy amongst themselves with their plug and play covers and cv utau recorded without a mic.

I think it's just due to the natural pace of improvement among people who practice an art for a long time. When everyone gets better, then of course standards are gonna raise, and not everyone is as good as everyone else so of course competition happens.

We make fun of noob users all the time for being super proud of their miku base badly oto'd fuzzy-sounding utau but when you look at them, they seem to be having a lot more fun.
 

Kuku Klock

Ruko's Ruffians
Defender of Defoko
I'm not gonna lie, as someone who keeps a low profile, but has been in the community for almost 8 or 9 years, The attitudes have changed...like drastically. Then again, bonding over a program that wasn't in english and hard to figure out was pretty fun.

Like Utau's first 3 years were people doing it as a hobby, having fun, and **** ratings cause why the hell would you care. Helping newer users was always the first on the list. It was like this because like I said, it was literally everyone bonding an figuring out how Utau even worked. Your first Voicebank sounded like a Potato got ran over by a semi and burning on the side of the road...no one seriously gave a flying **** as long as the vowels were right. and everyone had fun doing it no matter how bad it sounded. because why? EVERYONE WAS HAVING FUN.

The next three years everyone started to get a bit selfish. Yes, VCV was a shiny new thing and people wanted more of it. Suddenly it mattered if you were pronouncing your constants right or if they were wrong. Everyone wanted to Make a Kire Voicebank and if your VCV wasn't Kire it was hardly used. and lets not forget that it either had to be Ritsu's reclist or Ruko's reclist.

Theses last two years have complete dropped in the gutter. Its all about becoming UTAU famous. Everyone has to have high quaility mics. Everyone has to sound like Miku, or Kaikai, or Galven or ANY popular UTAU or Vocaloid. Everyone's artworks have to be master pieces. Its not fun anymore. Everyone has to meet a standard. Its suffercating. And I can say because its so strict now, most new UTAU users are quitting before they even start. And since, liek i said, most of teh more popular UTAU have snazzy artwork, they are used more often or if they remind user's of their favorite Vocaloid, tehy're used more often....mostly higher pitched UTAU (I've noticed).

But ya, looong story short. Utau literally went from Close knit family to pageant queens tearing each other's clothes and hair apart.
 

idol

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
I have to agree with op and kuku clock. I've been in this community for like... i don't even know how long??? maybe 9? 8? years? and it has definately changed. I don't think to a point of being ~super toxic~ but i see a lot of people making fun of simple vb utaus, and even (while getting a commission, mind you) someone made fun of mine.

So, y'know. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
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✧ Elfrida ✧

The Space Witch
Defender of Defoko
In all honesty I never really noticed the difference in the attitude shift until the last couple of months I've been on the forum. I've only really been somewhat active on here (or at the very least lurking around here) for the past year or so. Everyone has always seemed so friendly, so close and so helpful and there pretty much currently isn't anyone on the forum I dislike as of today. I have noticed that people do have disagreements and such a lot more often and occasionally there is a light amount of drama which is taken care of rather quickly. Other than that, attitude itself hasn't changed much in terms of how helpful and welcoming people are. Now, sure expectations have been raised, but that on some level is to be expected. Using UTAU is a skill after all, so with time people are going to get better, discover new things and overall learn how to make everything sound better. However, just because expectations are higher that doesn't excuse make fun of a new person's UTAU or anything like that. I haven't seen much of it, but I'm sure that it's a thing that happens. Rather than putting some new person down for their attempts, congratulate them, encourage them, criticize them properly, help them become better. No one should expect someone to learn overnight how to create the ultimate VCV+VC multiappend multipitch multilingual voicebank. No one is going to learn the advanced stuff immediately, so we shouldn't really expect that from anyone. And if anyone does try to do that stuff it should be because they want to, rather than because they feel forced too.
 

KNΞMΛTCS

Just an UtaForum user
Defender of Defoko
This, in my opinion, is just how time effects pretty much any fandom. It's just a hard fact, as far as I think.

The part you old-timers are looking back to is the initial growing stage. The fan group is very small and niche. They will do anything to get another member. Everyone is having fun. Keep in mind that nobody outside this very niche group appreciates their work, however. They think it's weird and/or sounds bad. Inside the fandom it couldn't be any more different, everyone is having their time of their lives.

Moving on,the fandom has now got the ball rolling. New members are coming in left and right, and numbers are rolling on and on. Things are going great, eventually even "outsiders" have come to appreciate our art form. However, due to the influx of members, a sort of saturation has occurred. You see, back in the first days, the group was small enough everyone knew everyone else, and it was almost more like a group of friends than a community. Now, there's more people than one could possibly meet in their lifetime. with this comes am unfortunate effect: people wanting to be known to more of the fandom. They fight hard, using both their good works and/or social popularity to propel their popularity. The snowball effect kicks in with some of these, and these go on to be the "celebrities" of the fandom that everyone looks up to. The group has now transformed form an even playing field,where everyone's equally popular, into a scale version of, say, the movie industry, with a handful of people taking the bulk of the focus, and many others competing for the top position with varying levels of success. Due to this competition,simply doing things fandom-related isn't enough to get the attention of fellow members of the fandom. You now have to build your image and make extraordinary works in order to get any attention whatsoever, just like you have to do in, say, the music industry.

With growth, you also bring in the sour apples. When a group of people is small enough to fit on a school bus, they're not an issue. But when there's thousands, you really can't do much about it, and people with the "my opinion is the only one" attitude can really do damage.

Also, throw in the fact Utau itself is (was?) software in active development. It has matured a lot since the star of the community. This also levels up the game.

Imagine a sport, just invented. That's the fandom when things just stated, a handful of players in their backyard, spreading word to their friends, who like the idea and spread it to their friends, and so on. Sooner or later, if things catch on, you get what the fandom is now: NFL football. Anyone can play, but the ante has been upped one thousand fold. In order to be famous with the general fan base, it takes a ridiculous amount of work, and time, and money, in order to do so, compared to back in the backyard days, where, once you heard about the sport, simply playing made you one with all 16 other players of the sport, and you had a load of fun.

This fandom is still growing; when it's complete mature (if it gets there), it will be filled with millions more people, the celebrity effect will be much, much more pronounced, and getting popular will be even harder. This is the time when vocal synthesis starts to merge with the full music scene, when major producers are synthesizing vocals as well as recording them. There will be a lot more fans, much more saturation, and of course, much more opponents. This is the way things will go, unless either vocal synthesis dies away, or the community wants to keep it niche, and keep away new members and growth -- something that would would be even worse. What we're experiencing are just growing pains.

Note that, until the last paragraph, I never named the Utau fandom specifically. That's because this applies to most, if not all, fan groups imo. I can see other groups in the first growing stage, and other in the mainstream stage. Don't know if this answers ops question but it's here.

TLDR: We're growing, what we're experiencing are unavoidable side effects.
 
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Avalia-Kasa

probably a potato tbh
Supporter
Defender of Defoko
I'm gonna add another two cents aha

I think the reason a lot of people doesn't see the change OP is talking about is a lot of the people on this forum are the nicest people in the community imo. Sure, there's a few people that I could stand to see off this forum (won't point fingers), but overall the people on here are really nice and I think the reason for it is the controlled, constructive environment the staff try to put up.

I think what OP is trying to say is about other sites the community uses, especially SoundCloud, YouTube, and Twitter. On sites like that, there isn't really that much you can do to keep people from being harmful. A lot of SoundCloud memes especially attack new users and things like what we're all talking about, and like Tumblr, you only get someone's sound if you follow the person who posted it or if someone reposts it. So I think a lot of the people in the forum who aren't seeing this change are in the really nice side of the community that shines really well, but there is definitely a lot of people that are more harmful. I think the biggest problem we can try to fix right now is explaining how to make constructive criticism rather than "you NEED to do this."

Also, I said this earlier, but from a producer standpoint, I've always come into this with professional goals in mind... well, as pro as I can get with a casual environment, haha. I love UTAU and what you can do with it, but I've always come in with one purpose: to make music, because that's all I see it as. I know there's a lot of other things you can bring to the table, but when it comes down to it, UTAU is a music software. I think the competitive level is the people who somewhat agree with my mindset?

Sure, UTAU is a great hobby, especially if you make a character with it, but it really depends on the individual's outlook on the program itself, I think. ((ALSO IM NOT TRYING TO ATTACK ANYONE im just trying to explain my thought process aha ; ; )

also im just gonna say i love that ppl are challenging themselves with utau originals pls do more thank
 

RaccoonButler

Founder of The Church of Mawarine Shuu
Defender of Defoko
It's kind of odd. We always talk about this but frankly it seems that we never do anything. But there's really not much to do about it. We can't go on a witch hunt for everyone who is overly competitive.

I think the best thing to do is to simply not get involved with said behavior and support everyone you can so they don't feel like the only way to make people care about them is to be insanely good or better than everyone. I think we can all agree we'd prefer less hostility, even if it doesn't involve your direct friend groups.

You can't change how other people choose to act but you can decide how you will act. It may seem too simple but if everyone were working to promote a more jovial attitude then slowly the aggressive community will become the minority.

This happens to pretty much every niche group I've ever seen long term. In the case of the art community I'm in, everyone pretty much just grew up and rethought their priorities.
 

SOHBlue

Master of Doom
Defender of Defoko
{If you don't want to read all my rambling and just want the short version, just scroll down to my conclusion. I also underlined my points again. I am the Queen of Tl;Dr.}
~Though if three of you say something that makes me believe you read it all, I'll make something great for everyone!~
(Okay, I'm less loopy now, typing and well rested and just caught up on the thread. I'd like to address some more jazz if I may because you all made good points. I'll do it in order and try to keep it brief for your reading ease. ^_^b Also, I have way too much time on my hands...)
@Mougeki Mero -But truth must be faced: for those who seek popularity with your VB, it will be hard.
I think that can he said for a number of things, and it kind of ties into HoneyPie's saying that some seems to want views handed to them. I agree, it can be annoying when it's constantly spammed, but when you're first starting out, you kind of have to speak up. No one's going to be there just waiting for your next work when you're just starting out without followers. At the same time though, constantly just wanting attention just for attention and not improvement or purposeful promotion puts people off. Often times most "spam" is usually something silly or for fun, and that's fine but it also usually moves the more serious works to the side. I've seen someone's serious SoundClouds get sandwiched between two parodies and not get feedback quite a few times. Again, I'm not really trying to call anyone out or say we should all be serious and super supportive, but if we're agreeing that followers and feedback are necessary to improve, then I feel we ought to try and offer that in anyway we can. Which will lead to another point later... shoot me now if you wish, I'm like an annoying professor on a coffee driven lecture, keel meh.
@Cign-Viewcounts mean feedback, and feedback is something I need to know if I've learned anything at all in these past few years.
I this is debatable depending on the individual. I see less value in just view counts alone because you don't know who or why someone looked at your work. To me, it's much more valuable when it is someone you look up to or someone who took the time to comment either constructive criticism or particular praise. Just having multiple likes and shares can leave a good feeling, but when it comes to seeking improvement, I prefer actual responses. Then again, I'm not seeking the same thing as you when it comes to an audience. Also, I feel like I'm rambling again, sorry!X3
@Kitcat190 It's important to know the difference between constructive criticism, honest opinions ect. and then just unhelpful nonsense.
All the yes to this. I agree completely and I think I ought to go into that a bit more. Just saying "Dat be gud, bro."-amusing as it might be- isn't the only thing that should be said when it comes to giving feedback on a work. Often times people looking for honest and constructive feedback will ask something specific like, "How's my mixing?" or "Does this look like accurate art or interesting writing?". And that's great! I love specific questions and answering them in a friendly way, offering at least a bit more even if I don't have much experience with it myself. But that's for praise and that's different from giving misinformation, which of course I'll address later. At this point I already decided to put a slimmed down conclusion, so I don't expect anyone to read all of this thoroughly. If you did, then mention the Fruit Loops. Going back to the feedback though, often times no one is specific and they'll just drop in a SoundCloud and say "Here's my crappy blahblahblah" Stwap et! Seriously, you wouldn't share it if you really thought it was that bad and of course-if not me-someone will say it's not that bad. If you just want some reassurance, then say so, please. Not necessarily like "OMG, love meee!" but you could always say "I'm not sure about this piece, what do you think?" Another thing I want to address-There is nothing wrong with having some confidence in your work. So long as you're not trying to talk down to others, competing against yourself is fine and saying "I know I can do better!" is great. Don't get me wrong, I'm also in that habit of having little confidence, but as another artist told me: "The more you speak poorly about your own work, the more people start to believe it and the more you lower your expectations of yourself." Bottom line-If you keep thinking you're no good, then you're not going to be good. Confidence is half the battle and you especially shouldn't take everyone else's opinion so seriously. If one person doesn't like it, then they don't like it. If nobody seems to like it...Well, do you? Yes? Then why are you asking me for?! This message was brought to you by Fruit Loops cereal because I'm loopy again...
(I kind of go out of order here, sorry. I'll get back to you, Blackbird...)
@HoneyPie Now if we were to talk about mics,
That's where i see the competition. With that, the mic competition seems like it's less about utau itself and more who has best mic
And tbh i don't see why that matters as long as you have fun recording and doing what you do
Okay, here's a tiny rant from little ol' me...I strongly dislike mic talk and equipment comparisons. I really do. I'm a firm believer in "It's not what you have, it's how you use it." You can have the most amazing freaking mic ever, but it doesn't count for anything if you hardly know how to work it. Not only that, but just because you spent a lot of money on something doesn't mean it's the best for everyone. I do believe in "You get what you pay for." too, but come on. Most people who are on this site are young teens and adults, ya really think peoples got 200-300 to blow on a mic? Same goes for drawing tablets and other software, I love being able to keep it simple and not super expensive. I also fully believe that the artist/entertainer makes the tools, not the tools make the creator. A prime example of that I think is GradeAUnderA who literally records with his phone, makes his art in Paint and his vids in Windows Movie Maker. Still became quite popular, no? And as for people hating on the Blue Snowball because it's apparently not as great for the price...well, dang it. I already have one and I don't think I'm going to bother changing it now. I like it so far anyways...*mumble mumble*
(I chose to go do two in one since both users and also a few others from before say they didn't notice competitiveness. Now onto killing two birds-lol, Blackbird XD-with one stone...)
@Blackbird as to the competitive nature in which the thread initially describes i actually don't see that attitude quiet often, or at least within the people who talk to me. Most of the kind of problems i see comes from misinformation. @RaccoonButler We make fun of noob users all the time for being super proud of their miku base badly oto'd fuzzy-sounding utau but when you look at them, they seem to be having a lot more fun.
Regarding misinformation as I brought up before, I really can't talk. I'm still pretty newby and don't know as much as the pioneers of this program. Hell, I was one of those who thought Ritsu was a girl. When it comes to questions of programming, mixing, otoing, or all that fancy snot-I stay out of it. I have little knowledge on the topic and I don't act like I do. Even on subjects I think I know enough about, I often screw up my words because I'm unsure and look like an idiot. My advice: "If you're not sure, don't try to answer."
And as for the Butler's *insert Sebastian Michaelis* words, I agree. It's fun not knowing what you're doing. I'm not going to lie, there's a reason people say "Ignorance is a bliss." I know people hate misinformation and I just said what I said about that, but if someone is having fun goofing around and experimenting-let them! That's how people learn. Constantly telling people "No, no, no! You're doing this wrong." isn't going to encourage them. Sometimes it's best just to let people figure things out on their own. In my opinion, if it's not hurting anyone else and doesn't have a high fatality rate-go for it!
:-D Why are you still listening to me?

(And there were more replies as I took about an hour to write all this, of course. Last one!)
@Kuku Klock Everyone has to meet a standard. Its suffercating. And I can say because its so strict now, most new UTAU users are quitting before they even start.
Well, again, I can't really speak for the past since I'm still pretty new but...I like your username. Nice to meet you! ^_^/ ...Getting back to the subject, I agree that it seems to be stressing everyone out far too much. I've seen a ton more hiatus threads and semi goodbyes. No one should feel like this is a chore or serious job, it's a part of something bigger. And if your dream is to make your own Vocaloid by working your way up with UTAU-then more power to you, but don't let it beat you either. We have time and we're surrounded by helpful and friendly people here, there shouldn't be any feelings of being trapped or about to crash into a deadline. I say work well, play nicely and remember to rest. Now let me shut up...

Alright, let me wrap this up so we can all go home and eat cookies. I know you're probably looking at all I wrote like "@_@ Dem multiparagraphs and colors and quotes..." but I had a lot I'd wanted to express since I really love the UTAU scene and didn't want to keep acting like nothing was happening. Everything changes no matter what you're involved in, but I'm hoping that this changes for the better. My points pretty much were (bulleted for your convenience):
  • Self spam can be annoying, but sometimes it is necessary as newcomers don't have an audience yet and don't always get the feedback they need. Hence, I feel we should just be a bit more mindful of that and offer it however we can.
  • Followers and likes to me are just numbers. I feel that comments and actual constructive criticism are better when it comes to seeking improvement and that sometimes just one thoughtful person's opinion can say more than ten "Good job, bro."s
  • My main point: There's nothing wrong with asking for some attention on your work or having some confidence in it so long as you're clear about what you want. If you think it's good but want to hear another's opinion, say so. If you want feedback on one particular aspect of your project then say so. Just dropping it somewhere and saying "Here's my crappy *insert likely decent work here*" well... then there's little to do with that but say "It's not that bad." And that's not exactly helpful.
  • Mics and equipment do. not. matter. Doesn't matter how much you paid for a tablet or what brand your mic is, you can still make something worthwhile. I used GradeAUnderA as an example and even if sound does matter much more with music, I highly doubt you need 200 monies or more to make something that sounds good.
  • If you're not sure of an answer to a question or what you're talking about-don't try to offer an answer unless you're the only one who even knows a bit about *insert something confusing*. Also, have fun so long as it isn't harmful.
  • Work well, play nice and remember to rest. For most this is a fun hobby or a part of a bigger dream and even if it is your main focus, you should enjoy it and not feel like it's a chore.
Now someone keep me away from any keyboards, I'm seriously on a writing roll and it'd be great if this was a simple song or poem but...*looks at all that I got so far* Jeez Zeus Cries I need to write more songs and the like. I pretty much wrote two full essays if not more on this thread alone. Any-who, sorry to text block your thread, Zoku, but I had a lot to say. Think I'm going to finger trap my hands now, goodnight!

Alright, I mentioned that if three people said something to make me believe they read my full two hours worth of responses that I'd make something great for everybody! That being a motivational thread that I'll fill with inspiring music, epic gifs and impressive art and the like. I might do this anyways since I had been thinking about it, and for all I know someone else could have already done it but oh well. I'm having fun with this. So! I'm looking for two things: ·What I asked you to mention in one of my responses· and the answer to this ·What is slimy and sophisticated?· which is also in one of my responses. Gonna see if you caught that. M'kay, I'm done now! *awkwardly self destructs*
I lied, I can't leave without a gif to make up for stressing your eyes with my blocks of texts:
gif___kasane_teto_by_lalischan-d5fsw9y.gif

(Also, there were even more responses when I finished! Sorry, but...)
Lnnfz2.gif

No Thank You.
Goodnight!
 
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kimchi-tan

Your local Mikotard
Global Mod
Defender of Defoko
(I planned to reply yesterday, and now there are so many wordy replies ^^; I may repeat what others have said)

Despite having been an UTAU user for almost 3 years, I haven't been that active in the community as I had hiatuses in 2014-2015 while returning sporadically and having continued being active in the community just a couple months ago; I can't speak as a long-time member of the community, but I can speak as a member who has seen glimpses over the course of almost 3 years' time.

To be honest, I enjoy how everyone is striving more: voicebanks, covers/originals, tuning, mixing, new oto methods, and the like. Plug-and-play covers are less common and otos are better than before, and there's the glorious moresampler (a pleasant surprise to find out when coming back)!

To want to be the best at something you love doing is very normal. As arrogant as these may sound, I had thoughts of wanting to "be the next kyaami" and to be "the best Miko Ooka user" before which is incredibly ridiculous and embarrassing to admit. Kyaami is MitchieM from another dimension and the best Miko Ooka user is ChieP (every hardcore Miko fan knows that :wink: As long those kinds of thoughts don't consume and blackens your personality but rather motivate, it's perfectly fine.

Back then, I limited myself to just the vipperloids (with some exemptions) with the unadmitting fear that I will find other "better" UTAU - I was right: I've been downloading more UTAU I wished I found about much earlier; not to mention, the majority of them are non-Japanese VBs!

As stated above, I've been absent in the years before, and to be honest, I find the fandom much more mature than before: drama is shorter and more people reflect on their actions. While fandoms gain more naive members when growing and lasting longer, the earlier members eventually mature.

Now I'll try to read the other replies *.*
 
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