Unpopular Opinion: CVVC>VCCV

Discussion in 'UTAU Discussion' started by socialgutbrain777, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. socialgutbrain777

    socialgutbrain777 Momo's Minion

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    DISCLAIMER
    Don't read this thread if y'all don't like unpopular opinions. Nuff said.
    ---
    Hi. My name's Oakley, and this is my first post on these forums. Now, if you read the title, I'm more of an old school person. Heck, I even listen to Cab Calloway and Frank Sinatra. I'm so old school, I even like CVVC better than VCCV. Now, you must be wondering why. Well, those good old days of CVVC English are when I first got into UTAU. One day, I tried making my own voicebank. It was worth a shot. And I did it in probably the most stupid way ever. I downloaded a pre-made VB, opened each recording up in Audacity, and recorded my voice alongside the original recordings, and deleted the originals. Once I loaded my finished synth into UTAU, I was giddy with excitement. I loaded a ust and set the voice. I was ready. But as soon as I hit play, disaster struck. All I heard was garbled screeching and fragments of the original recordings I forgot to replace. Good times. Now, why didn't I gravitate towards VCCV like everyone else, you may ask? Well, allow me to list my pros and cons of both formats below.
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    VCCV

    Pros: A bit smoother, somewhat easier to record

    Cons: x is the same as 6 and u, really big, takes a long time to make, wayyyyy too many lyrics

    CVVC

    Pros: Small and simple, cluttered (I like clutter), perfect for beginners, easy to make

    Cons: Kind of hard to record, Can sound choppy, 1ng an 1nk are the same
    ---
    Anyway, opinions.
     
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  3. Yanderu

    Yanderu Teto's Territory Defender of Defoko

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    Honestly, VCCV does have more pros than cons to CVVC. One, transition CV's, these are WAY smoother than the CV's CVVC used 2, the ending l's and some other's, lets say you have 'real' CVVC would do fine '[rE] [El]' VCCV '[-rE] [El-/El]' not to differen BUT, words such as relearn need the 'V C' or else it'd sound like 'realearn'. Also l's, r's and y's sound really choppy and unnatural in CVVC. Now, I will list pro and cons.

    VCCV:

    Pro's:
    -Organized samples rether than the Abd, Obd strings
    -CC's for m, l, n, ng, r(?). These help with smoothness.
    -You can delete certain groups of samples to fit your dialect, if you believe one phoneme is the same as some others, you can delete the excess easy.
    x, 6, u are not the same for certain dialects, America has different states all residing from different accents.
    -Modular you can remove parts such as the _CV because transition CV's work aboat the same
    -_CV's help reduce the sounds samples whilst retaining integrity rather than CCV, same with CC-


    Cons:
    -Long list
    -Long oto
    -Can be difficult to use if your a begginer
    -Requires convel most of the time
    -Harder being used for faster songs
    -Can have a difficult oto
    -Can be very choppy if either not UST, otoed, or voice correctly.

    CVVC:

    Pro's:
    -Can be strung, also can be short if done correct
    -There are different ways of CVVC, such as adding -C or C-

    Cons:
    -Isn't really supported anymore, you'll need to edit a lot
    -Has VC issues like the El
    -Can be really choppy if not used correctly.
    -VC's of old English CVVC now differ from newer standards, where the voice bank has a more 'Japanese CVVC' like oto.
    -CCV's may need convel if the not is too short.
    -VCC's, may not play if not done correctly
    -Doesn't come with oto nowadays.
     
  4. partial

    partial UTAU English advocate Global Mod Supporter Defender of Defoko

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    I'm really big on the topic of UTAU English and while I much prefer VCCV I'm honestly just happy to see UTAU English being used regardless of the format.
     
    MillyAqualine likes this.
  5. Kiyoteru

    Kiyoteru Local Sensei Supporter Defender of Defoko

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    I already get that you're referring to Chezzie's old English CVVC reclist in particular, but CVVC is a general term that can be applied to many, many reclists beyond that. Categorically, Chezzie's VCCV reclist is a type of CVVC.
     
  6. socialgutbrain777

    socialgutbrain777 Momo's Minion

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    Mkay. I'll check it out.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2018 ---
    If anyone's wondering, no, I don't think VCCV is bad. I actually like it. And I'm not saying u, 6 and x are the same, I was just saying that x can easily be substituted with u or 6. I was just being lazy with my words like I usually can be. I'm even recording a VCCV voicebank. This post is admittedly kinda biased, but I still really like CVVC. I might do CVVC when I start my French voicebank. Idk.
     
  7. Dangosan

    Dangosan Jerboa angel of Light Defender of Defoko

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    The default VCCV English reclist has a restrictive TOS and this is a reason why I prefer CVVC English over VCCV English (well, at least until Koko comes out).
    Furthermore, VCCV is usually in moonrunes, which is a problem for those who are not that English-oriented.
    Also, unlike Delta CVVC, VCCV requires manual editing, which makes it CPU-intense. Delta has presamp, which brings the comfort of VOCALOID to UTAU. I've had UTAU crash on me or even hang the whole system on an Atom rig designed for Windows 7 Starter (even though I use Linux with IceWM) while editing a VCCV UST. And it was the editing process that hanged UTAU, not presamp.
    It can be argued that VCCV is bloated compared to CVVC. Well, Aura is developing a multilingual, modular VCCV voicebank that seems less bloated and Sors told me that VCCV isn't that bloated as I conceive it.
    How can UTAU be feature-complete if a much-wanted thing such as terminal consonant regions are not implemented?
    I prefer voicebanks that are frugal and effective. That's why I planned to release all languages in a single pack, CV + CVVC + VCV Japanese. I've even thought of a jigdo-style voicebank installer that lets you choose what components do you want to install. And this is the main reason why I detested multipitch.
     
  8. socialgutbrain777

    socialgutbrain777 Momo's Minion

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    Exactly. I do have some VCCV voicebanks on my system, but I mostly do CVVC for efficiency and file space. Unstringed would have to be my favorite.
     
  9. ✧ Elfrida ✧

    ✧ Elfrida ✧ The Space Witch Defender of Defoko

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    The only problem I have with, specifically Cz CVVC English, is that it's pretty much outdated now and while not as bloated (especially if using a lite list) it's only a tiny bit smaller than VCCV. VCCV has a little over 1000 recordings per pitch, if I'm correct, while CVVC had 800-900, maybe a little less if you record it in strings. Unless you use a lite list, which I never did so disregard if you tend to use lite English lists.

    The pros with it are that you technically can oto it to be very similar to a VCCV bank, it can even run with similar smoothness when used properly. However, at this point, both methods to me are very bloated and as someone who doesn't always have a lot of time on their hands to record, most English/multilingual methods are going to have plenty of cons until we can all agree on a smaller more efficient list for recording English and stuff without sacrificing too much quality but cutting out important samples.
     

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