VCV-like English tests

[Ant]

Okay. Some talk came up on a thread on VO between me 'n kit, and we thought it'd be cool to have some kind of VCV English. So I tried something weird. Technically it's CV VCV VC English, but the CVs and VCs will only have to be used at the beginning and end of each string of notes, not in between. For example, with CV VC English, for "This is a test sentence" you would write:

[tthi][is][si][iz][zu][ut][te]est][se][ent][ti][ins]

In VCV-like English (I don't know what to call it) it would be:

CV                                                VC
[tthi][isi][izu][ute][estse][enti][ins]


Here's how it sounds:
[soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/anttaffy/testing-some-not-really-but[/soundcloud]

And how it looks in the editor:
http://imageshack.us/a/img100/4218/testimg.png

I'm writing this here instead of VO because it's more relevant to be in an UTAU forum.

NOTE: I only recorded enough to make this little test/sample, I do not have a full bank or reclist or anything of the sort. ^^''

Now, let's talk issues. It's probably my fault since I've never touched VCV, but when I shorten the notes to half the length, it get's choppy and the longer samples ("estse") don't work. I'm working on fixing that.

 

[Meta]

I like it! I hope you'll keep updating as you delve into it more. This sounds really nice and I'm always interested in new ways to do English.

 

[kirrinx]

VCV English has sorta already been done before o3o but no vb's have been released with this type of reclist though.

Cdra ( cv+vc english + vcv lite english )
[UTAU ENGLISH] Halt Halt ☆ Super Fever Night [Halt Tanner VCVVC CONFIDENT]

and SyrenaEphemera (she used cv+vcv+vc english )
[UTAU] Marya (Karami Mare) - I'll be your home [VCV English]


I think  ;3; its really cool that more people are doing this and im curious to see how your progress goes along ^w^

 

[Ant]

Oh, it's been done? Huh. I'll have to download them and see how they did it. I only have halt's full CVVC. Well, it sounds good, though, so I guess I'll continue and just add it to my full CV VC bank as like an extra add-on of sorts.

 

[KitWistful]

Okay. Some talk came up on a thread on VO between me 'n kit, and we thought it'd be cool to have some kind of VCV English. So I tried something weird. Technically it's CV VCV VC English, but the CVs and VCs will only have to be used at the beginning and end of each string of notes, not in between. For example, with CV VC English, for \"This is a test sentence\" you would write:

[tthi][is][si][iz][zu][ut][te]est][se][ent][ti][ins]

In VCV-like English (I don't know what to call it) it would be:

CV                                                VC
[tthi][isi][izu][ute][estse][enti][ins]


Here's how it sounds:
[soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/anttaffy/testing-some-not-really-but[/soundcloud]

And how it looks in the editor:
http://imageshack.us/a/img100/4218/testimg.png

I'm writing this here instead of VO because it's more relevant to be in an UTAU forum.

NOTE: I only recorded enough to make this little test/sample, I do not have a full bank or reclist or anything of the sort. ^^''

Now, let's talk issues. It's probably my fault since I've never touched VCV, but when I shorten the notes to half the length, it get's choppy and the longer samples (\"estse\") don't work. I'm working on fixing that.

woah! that's pretty excellent 8O It's very understandable and seems to be blending well.

Is it difficult to record? And what do the otos look like right now?

I wanna make some tests too, but I can't record again until the weekend, and I still have like a bajillion CV VC loose ends to record. So I'll be driving backseat for now it seems 8'O

EDIT: got around to listening to Marya. It's really working well, she sounds really nice and breathy and natural in the lower register.

 

[Ant]

I'll upload the filesnlater so you can take a look at the oto. I've never OTOed VCV though, so I just looked at Ritsu's and tried to copy it and adapt it. Still not sure where the red line should go on the "estse" sample, though.

 

[Cdra]

The problem with this method is the incredible number of possible combinations between the "VC CV" kinds of things.  Think about how many samples you would have to record to finish this kind of bank!  While it sounds great, it's also just too much, and not actually a whole lot smoother than plain CV VC on those kinds of transitions--like your [est se].

Now, if you want to use VCVs for transitions that DON'T have stop consonants (VC), that would probably work better.  It would still involve an absurd amount of recording, being the issue. Cz's lite list for this method (which could use some trimming and refining, certainly) is 11-moora and about 600 samples of it.  The bank turns out HUGE and most of the samples never get used more than once.  Of course, others get re-used a lot.  Which is why I say this could be refined to maybe work... maybe.

If you want to add VCV to English, it's best to use CV VC as a base for that so that you'll be able to make the stop consonants happen best.  Then what you could do is work out VCVs for the following constructions:

• True VCVs: Vowel-consonant (cluster)-vowel, like the transition in "a test".
• Mid-word VCVs: Vowel-consonant cluster-vowel, like in the word "sentence".
• Stop VCVs: like "it is"-- a sample that goes like [it i] to create a more natural pause.

Trying to make a complete bank of this would be a lot of samples, and I'm not convinced from my experiences that it's that much smoother than CV VC.  Not enough so to warrant otoing and recording so many extra samples...

Also, to oto the VCVs, put the overlap at the end of the clear part of the first vowel (like a VC) and the preutterance at the beginning of the second vowel.

 

[KitWistful]

The way me and Ant were talking back in VO, I had the impression of the project/experiment being an expansion pack of sorts for CV VC 'loids. I find that the allure of a full VCV english bank is very compelling...but I agree that full VCV isn't necessarily a godsend. One day, I'd like to see such a project through just to say that-it's possible-and we did it-and you be the judge of whether or not it's worth it. But realistically and right now, I think it would be fun just to record a few sets, cover a few songs, and see what we can get out of it.

 

[Cdra]

What I'm saying, Kit, is that you're not the first people to try this. xD  Edgy's famous "VCV English beta" is this method.  But after talking to him about it, we sorted out that it would take hundreds of thousands of samples to make such a bank...  I was trying to suggest ways to make it feasible for a real bank--because recording a bank that can only sing one song or two is silly.  And I know several people who have done just that.  (don't get me started on Syo's "English" list, his new one, that's actually only a beta that only has the samples for Rolling in the Deep)

As an expansion to CV VC is the right way to go about it, I'm just trying to point how what you could do to make it more workable.  Samples like [est se] are probably worse for the bank than just using [est] [se], but if you wanted to try VCV, there might be other methods to try....

 

[Ant]

Yeah, I guess only recording the ones that have one consonant wouldn't be so bad, then adding it to my CV VC bank. Still though, imagining is fun. ;3; I think that's what I'll do, write up a reclist with just single consonant VCVs.

Then maybe later if I like it I can do some VCCVs for the heck of it.

EDIT: did some calculations; if i only did VCV (one middle cosonant) and i dis it as 7-mora, I would need about 611 recordings.

Hey, thats doable.

Edit2: wait, I don't need to do the samples that begin with U (U + consonant + vowel) because the o sample takes care of that already. So it will be even less.

 

[Cdra]

There are some things you can do to streamline it.  For instance, '6' isn't a very common vowel; it can only appear between consonants... so maybe there's a way to clear them down?  I'd have to think more.  Other combinations just about never appear...

Well, if you want just the single-consonant list, I can get Cz to give you her draft and you can work from that?

If you end up with a list that provides some good add-ons without being incredibly cumbersome and having lots of wasted sounds, I'll record it. ovo

 

[Ant]

Sweet, that'd be cool. I already started a list so I don't think I'll need CZ's. I'll start trying to trim it down today, maybe to around 450 samples? Maybe even 400 if I can? I think I'm going to record as much as I can myself, though, and maybe make both a full and lite list.