Vocaloid Superiority?

Arissa

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
Something that really friends my gears is when people think that the Utau program is just a poor man's vocaloid, and that's its characters/voicebanks are just fanmade vocaloids. Earlier I was checking out Xia Yu Yao and saw some utau appreciation things for her, and I really liked all the nice things being said, but what sort of ruined the good mood was when someone put in their dislikes of her the fact that she wasn't a Vocaloid, as if Vocaloid is just superior no matter what.

I understand that Vocaloid is seen as highly professional and does marketing and whatnot and surpasses utau in popularity, but does that really make it 'better'?

I think that if popular Utau were taken from the program and made into Vocaloids, our community will have lost something really important. For example, take Makune Hachi and Ruby. They sound quite similar, and by that not only in voice but both sound fairly high quality, despite being from different programs. After Ruby was made, Hachi was no longer available for download, which is understandable, but even still that's sort of a loss.

For that matter, just how much rights do voicers for Vocaloids have to their respective Vocaloid? I know that if one has made an utau they're the ones that manage and take care of them, and can freely distribute banks if they please.

So do you think Vocaloid is superior to Utau? Would you give up your utau if you were asked to Vocaloid instead? How do you overall feel about the topic?
 

Arissa

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter
Sure, UTAU was broke kid's Vocaloid in 2008. Nowadays Vocaloid rips off features from UTAU.
Hm, so you believe the Utau program should never be taken seriously because of some people making fanmade 'vocaloids' with it? I can think of a fee instances where people just pitched up a Vocaloid song/cover of Miku or Gumi, etc. claiming it was a new/or their own, Vocaloid. It'd be more helpful of you elaborated :annoyed:
 

Zoku

making doper vocaloid music than the rest
Defender of Defoko
Hm, so you believe the Utau program should never be taken seriously because of some people making fanmade 'vocaloids' with it? I can think of a fee instances where people just pitched up a Vocaloid song/cover of Miku or Gumi, etc. claiming it was a new/or their own, Vocaloid. It'd be more helpful of you elaborated :annoyed:
He's saying that Vocaloid rips off features from UTAU and UTAU voicebanks--in other words UTAU is showing more advancement.

I personally think UTAU will always have the possibility and ability to surpass the likes of Vocaloid, however the complex blending and synthesis methods of the Vocaloid engine will always be out of reach for UTAU.
 

HoneyPai

Defoko's Slaves
Defender of Defoko
From what I know and depending on the company, voicers hardly have any control over the Vocaloids they have voiced. Misha had design and name power because a friend of her's was developing ruby and I assume Aki and Kenji had design and name power because Kenji is a friend of Aki and Aki has worked with Zero G before.

And Sachiko Kobayashi, well she got to design the style of the name on Sachiko's fan.

but to be fair Hachi's vb is still up, it's just hidden, not hidden well but you just gotta look for it.

And actually when it comes to hachi and ruby, Ruby's bg noise is more prominent and noticeable than Hachi's so I think utau really has an advantage there. But then again Vocaloid is professional so of course it's going to be more sensitive because it's made for professionally recorded samples to go in it. Utau and vocaloid are superior in their owns ways in my opinion
 

chunter

Ruko's Ruffians
Defender of Defoko
Yes, I'm honestly saying UTAU is the superior instrument and has been for a while, but it's easier for an unskilled user to get a good sounding result quickly in Vocaloid.

The examples of Vocaloid voicebanks made with help from the UTAU community make me think of too many cooks spoiling broth, however, I am concerned with the sound and expressiveness for music above literally everything else.
 
P

partial

Guest
I think it's mainly the fanbase Vocaloid has that makes people believe it's so much better, and the stigma of UTAU voicebanks always being terrible quality. I really do think the reason people think Vocaloid is some god-like synth is because they fixate on characters only.

But if I were asked to voice a Vocaloid, the answer would be yes only if I could keep my UTAU at the same time.
Though I personally believe UTAU has plenty of voicebanks that are as good of quality as Vocaloid voices offer.

Wat tweeted about UTAU, claiming (from what google translation shows) that UTAU has more expression, and maybe even a superior engine?
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/835103770488909826
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/835104350175318017
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/835105242928705536
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/839569093803962368
 

Arissa

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter
He's saying that Vocaloid rips off features from UTAU and UTAU voicebanks--in other words UTAU is showing more advancement.

I personally think UTAU will always have the possibility and ability to surpass the likes of Vocaloid, however the complex blending and synthesis methods of the Vocaloid engine will always be out of reach for UTAU.

But how would people trying to rip offVocaloid using utau be signs of advancement??
[doublepost=1493089829][/doublepost]
Yes, I'm honestly saying UTAU is the superior instrument and has been for a while, but it's easier for an unskilled user to get a good sounding result quickly in Vocaloid.

The examples of Vocaloid voicebanks made with help from the UTAU community make me think of too many cooks spoiling broth, however, I am concerned with the sound and expressiveness for music above literally everything else.
Haha, it didn't look that way since you said sure and I asked if ppl thought Vocaloid was superior ;^^ But, yeah, I agree, with what you said about broth and whatnot.
[doublepost=1493089991][/doublepost]
I think it's mainly the fanbase Vocaloid has that makes people believe it's so much better, and the stigma of UTAU voicebanks always being terrible quality. I really do think the reason people think Vocaloid is some god-like synth is because they fixate on characters only.

But if I were asked to voice a Vocaloid, the answer would be yes only if I could keep my UTAU at the same time.
Though I personally believe UTAU has plenty of voicebanks that are as good of quality as Vocaloid voices offer.

Wat tweeted about UTAU, claiming (from what google translation shows) that UTAU has more expression, and maybe even a superior engine?
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/835103770488909826
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/835104350175318017
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/835105242928705536
https://twitter.com/vocaloid_cv_cfm/status/839569093803962368

Yeah, I heard that utau has more freedom and capability and whatnot, and if one were asked to voice a Vocaloid I'd sort of think the people in charge wouldn't want the voice to be distributed for free, like, if the Utau and Vocaloid sounded almost identical (aside from programwise more like voicewise and quality) that they'd instead want people to pay for a voicebank, but that's what I think would happen.
[doublepost=1493090118][/doublepost]
From what I know and depending on the company, voicers hardly have any control over the Vocaloids they have voiced. Misha had design and name power because a friend of her's was developing ruby and I assume Aki and Kenji had design and name power because Kenji is a friend of Aki and Aki has worked with Zero G before.

And Sachiko Kobayashi, well she got to design the style of the name on Sachiko's fan.

but to be fair Hachi's vb is still up, it's just hidden, not hidden well but you just gotta look for it.

And actually when it comes to hachi and ruby, Ruby's bg noise is more prominent and noticeable than Hachi's so I think utau really has an advantage there. But then again Vocaloid is professional so of course it's going to be more sensitive because it's made for professionally recorded samples to go in it. Utau and vocaloid are superior in their owns ways in my opinion
I know there are still ways to download her ;^^ I'd just respect the creator's wishes, like if Misha didn't want Hachi being distributed (don't know if that's the case or not, just an example) so I'd feel kind of odd, lol hope I don't sound square
 
P

partial

Guest
Yeah, I heard that utau has more freedom and capability and whatnot, and if one were asked to voice a Vocaloid I'd sort of think the people in charge wouldn't want the voice to be distributed for free, like, if the Utau and Vocaloid sounded almost identical (aside from programwise more like voicewise and quality) that they'd instead want people to pay for a voicebank, but that's what I think would happen.
I think this would be especially ridiculous in the case of English UTAU voices, as VCCV produces much more understandable results than the synthesis method Vocaloid uses (in my opinion).
 
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KNΞMΛTCS

Just an UtaForum user
Defender of Defoko
To me, Vocaloid has "warmer" sound, which I like, while Utau, in general, seems to have a harsher sound. Vocaloid handles sample blending seamlessly, while it's a messy experience in Utau. Finally, Vocaloid does some basic pitch tweaks behind the scenes that make un-tuned output more acceptable in my opinion.
At the same time, Utau has far, far more voicebanks to offer so it's almost a guarantee there's a voicebank that fits your need. Utau gains more flexibility with the dozens of engines it can use - it this point, it's an entire platform, not just a single synthesizer. Utau has a bit of an edge when it comes to new features as well. Of course, you can't forget that Utau is completely free to use as well.

I'd say in a nutshell that Vocaloid is Windows, while Utau is Linux. Neither is really better than the other, they just have different philosophies and users.
 

VocAddict

The Voice Within Us
Defender of Defoko
To be quite honest, this thing called 'Vocaloid superiority' doesn't really exist. Yes, there are people who believe that a Vocaloid will be better than an UTAU just because they're paying money for it but we have to take into consideration the numerous advancements that UTAU has made since its release.

UTAU has numerous resamplers, different recording methods, and a vast amount of plugins to makes synthesis better. Therefore, we have numerous ways to make the 'best quality' product possible. I believe that UTAU has surpassed Vocaloid in some aspects but Vocaloid is still ahead in some ways due to the limiting factor of UTAU (it needs serious updating). It's only due to 3rd-parties that it is what it is today.

Vocaloid will be superior for in terms of their blending and synthesis, there's no doubt about that. Vocaloid picks up the littlest noise so that banks that are recorded for Vocaloid has to be top-notch. Vocaloid likes to amplify issues in voicebanks lol.

As for clarity and expression, Vocaloid has one script (except for times when a dev will make their own revisions to a script for their purpose) so, it's really up to how the VP actually records the list. And as I said earlier, we have numerous scripts so, we have the advantage there.

Anyways, in conclusion, each platform has its strengths and weakness. But I currently believe UTAU is the superior engine due to the numerous advancements that were made.

As for the rights a person has when they voice a Vocaloid, I don't really remember right now (and find the sources at the moment) but it depends on your deal with the company. If I were ever approached to voice a Vocaloid, even if it meant to take down my UTAUs, I would probably do it. Not because of the hype

Really? Last time I checked people had said that Misha shut down all the download links to Hachi for 'personal reasons'

If I remember correctly, I think the only bank of Hachi's that is up is her ACUTE bank.
 

Piia

Retired User
Retired User
Defender of Defoko
This [utau isnt as good as Vocaloid and won't ever be] has been such a popular myth in my opinion. Someone i met was surprised that utau could sound great and said, "I always thought of UTAU as the little sister of Vocaloid that doesn't sound as good." Honestly, I fell victim for it back in the early 2010s //shot. Maybe one of the reasons many people don't see it as a great vocalsynth program as Vocaloid is because many, and I mean many covers using UTAU are usually... Uhm, poorly made. By that I mean tuning is poor, mixing is bad, or the bgm and the vocals are just not synced well. Whereas many Vocaloid users most likely have had experience with electronic music, hence making better covers.

I do agree with you; if UTAU was just like Vocaloid, we would've lost the essence of this community and fandom.

TBH I don't know the process of Vocaloid making so R I P

Holy smokes if I was given the chance to voice a Vocaloid of my own I'd be stoked~! I think anyone would feel privileged if given such a wonderful opportunity. Though if they were to give a name to the Vocaloid I voiced it'd probably be Horseloid OTL

I'm a fan of both, honestly. But I don't see any of them as superior to another. Vocaloid has its great features (clean, professional-looking piano roll and interface etc.) while UTAU has its own (easy tuning, flags, DIY voicebanks, you name it ^^)

If I had to give up my UTAU up, I'd definitely feel really bad and probably won't do it. But if I needed the money *that* badly, I probably will (I'm being honest ^^; )

How do I feel about this topic? Hmm... I'm neutral about it. People are free to express their opinions. :smile:
 

Arissa

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter
To me, Vocaloid has "warmer" sound, which I like, while Utau, in general, seems to have a harsher sound. Vocaloid handles sample blending seamlessly, while it's a messy experience in Utau. Finally, Vocaloid does some basic pitch tweaks behind the scenes that make un-tuned output more acceptable in my opinion.
At the same time, Utau has far, far more voicebanks to offer so it's almost a guarantee there's a voicebank that fits your need. Utau gains more flexibility with the dozens of engines it can use - it this point, it's an entire platform, not just a single synthesizer. Utau has a bit of an edge when it comes to new features as well. Of course, you can't forget that Utau is completely free to use as well.

I'd say in a nutshell that Vocaloid is Windows, while Utau is Linux. Neither is really better than the other, they just have different philosophies and users.
I have noticed that overall Vocaloid has a smooth sound, but covers using one can still sound off and somewhat choppy, in the way that a smooth voice could, if that makes sense...? But I also think that a lot of vocaloids with average/good tuning still sound slightly similar, not in voice but just that texture of voice when they sing, even with appends, imo. whereasin utau there are a variety of voice types, for example, take some VCV utau like Hiyori Shirakane, Gahata Meiji, Yamine Renri, and Ryone Yami. Hiyori is a bit more whispery, Meiji has a somewhat cluttered type of voice, Yami is smooth but at times doesn't have much emotion, and Renri is smooth and can sound really emotional(these were observations with their voices, not insults lol) and I think that's an example of how varied utau voices can be, even if the same voicebank type/reclist was used. Overall, I think the two programs should be seen as equals, both have their downsides and upsides, but should still be acknowledged for what they do well, instead of one group being pushed down all the time.
 

Mougeki Mero

Defoko's Slaves
Defender of Defoko
I once made a thread similar to this and in a few words, ny opinion is: VOCALOID is just "better" than UTAU because of status/popularity/whathever you want to call it. I really would like to talk more about it with you since I did some small (and simple) research, but I'd prefer it this talk happens trought PMs, so if you can PM me I will reply tonight (typing on cellphone is horrible ORZ)
 
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WendytheCreeper

(>☉ ͡ヮ☉<)
Defender of Defoko
I dislike pitting Vocaloid and UTAU against each other, since both engines have their own drawbacks and triumphs over each other. At most, I like to consider it as a commercial vs indie developer issue:

Commercial development (Vocaloid) has set standards, so that even the worst work is at some baseline level of quality. It is mainly limited by what is likely to sell and appeal to its audience, because there is more money at stake and a product that sells badly could mean that the venture is not worth it to the company; that is, there is a reputation on the line, and if a company cannot live up to that, then that could end their foray into that area. However, even if you have a generic product, a great or excellent generic product is quite useful and a great investment.

Indie development has no quality control, so you can end up with something amazing...or something that is complete garbage. However, there is also no artistic limits in indie work, since you generally aren't worrying about whether something will sell. This may be troublesome for people trying to make money off of something niche, but it does allow for more freedom.

I think either direction is valid. I believe there is a great amount of value in working on both commercial and indie projects. Ultimately, while people may pit Vocaloid and UTAU against each other, I like to think of them as both programs worth my time and interest, because there is something absolutely amazing about both of them: That they can both create human vocals that we musicians can manipulate.
 

MillyAqualine

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
Sure, UTAU was broke kid's Vocaloid in 2008. Nowadays Vocaloid rips off features from UTAU.

Reminds me the EVEC coming out from appends and so on, or the fact Luka V4x was mainly inspired by Meiji Gahata's voicebanks template (and i forget about main other ones )
 

Arissa

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter
I once made a thread similar to this and in a few words, ny opinion is: VOCALOID is just "better" than UTAU because of status/popularity/whathever you want to call it. I really would like to talk more about it with you since I did some small (and simple) research, but I'd prefer it this talk happens trought PMs, so if you can PM me I will reply tonight (typing on cellphone is horrible ORZ)
Sure, so do I press start a conversation or something? Lol I have no clue how to pm people on this forum.
 
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