What do you begin with while creating a reclist?

Discussion in 'Q&A and Tech Support' started by delphic, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. delphic

    delphic Dead inside UTAU memer Defender of Defoko

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    Hello!
    I'm going to create a reclist for my language in future, but since it's my first reclist that I create I'd like to have some advices and tips from you.
    I actually have some ideas about how to organize a reclist, mainly by writing up all the consonants and the vowels that are in the desired language to synthesize. But my biggest question about a reclist creation is how to write correctly a list.
    More specifically, I don't know how to write the strings to correctly create transitions (fe. d@_d@d_k@d-, that permits to create syllables such as "-d@", "@ d", "@d", "@d-"...), so that's why I opened this thread, since there are users that have more knowledge on how to create a reclist and to learn more.
    I hope that my message is clear!

    I'm bad when it comes to explaining...
     
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  3. HulderBulder

    HulderBulder Ritsu's Renegades Defender of Defoko

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    When I make reclist I do the same in reguard to listing each individual consonants and vowels. I recomend looking into "wikipedia.org/wiki/InsetLanguageHere_phonology" as well as googling for "phonology InsertLanguageHere" or "InsertLanguageHere X-Sampa/IPA", as they tend to provide links to lists over the sounds.

    Afer making the list, I figure out what I want and need in the bank. It's less work and makes a lighter bank when you do it diphone (only 2 sounds per note), but as a result it's harder to edit usts, forexample "kaken smaker" would be [- k] [k a] [a k] [k e] [e n] [n s] [s m] [m a][a k] [k e] [e r] [r -].

    For the next part I make a CV list in the mora i like and with only one of the vowels at a time, and rotating the order of the consonants in the string whne I'm using a new vowel, so I'll have all the "- C" sounds.

    After that there's CC, I copy 1 of the vowel + consonant lists and add a consonant next to the vowel. The vowel is there as a dummy as it makes the recording easier. It will be edited out in the oto.
    example:
    ab_Cab_Nab_Sab_bab
    ab_dab_fab_gab_hab
    ab_jab_kab_lab_mab
    ab_nab_pab_rab_rdab
    ab_sab_tab_vab

    aC_CaC_NaC_SaC_baC
    aC_daC_faC_gaC_haC
    aC_jaC_kaC_laC_maC
    aC_naC_paC_raC_rdaC
    aC_saC_taC_vaC
    This gives me all the CC combinations possible:wink:.
     
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  4. delphic

    delphic Dead inside UTAU memer Defender of Defoko

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    Thank you for your help! ;v;
    Now it's a bit more clear for me!
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  5. Kiyoteru

    Kiyoteru Local Sensei Supporter Defender of Defoko

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    When you look up the phonology of a language, also mind the phonotactics! Those are the rules for constructing syllables. For example, some phonemes might only happen at the beginning or end of syllables. Or maybe only certain consonants are allowed to combine into clusters. While you don't have to memorize the rules as-is, you want to use those to determine what kinds of syllables are needed for the reclist. If you're lucky, there may even be a list of example syllables, etc. already compiled. For example, in an English voicebank, the "str" cluster only happens at the beginning of a syllable.

    I currently have a VCV reclist generator that will take any consonants and vowels you put in, but I'm planning to make a universal diphone reclist generator that also takes any phonemes, and give you a complete reclist with every VV, CV, VC, and CC possible. This will automate the process, but of course you may still want to do things by hand if you want anything more complex than two phonemes at a time. For example, if you want to have multiple types of CV and VC. If you don't already understand about multiple types of CV and VC, I would studying existing reclists. It seems that you already know about VCCV english and probably also rentan Japanese CVVC.

    One more thing! Please, please, please don't copy+paste the VCCV English reclist and simply swap out the phonemes. That reclist was built from the ground up to support the English language, so if you want a reclist that fits another language, definitely write it from scratch!!
     
  6. 幸兔雪 (Yukito Yuki)

    幸兔雪 (Yukito Yuki) Defoko's Slaves Supporter Defender of Defoko

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    Hiya! One more tip for reclisting:

    In some languages, there's some CC combinations that exit in MIDDLE of word only, let's say for example "alpaca" from English of "ohra" [ohra] from Finnish.

    You might say "oh, but I can use CC recoding for that only!" With come consonant like l/s/m/n yes, no problem at all (for example "lp" for alpaca) but consonant like h/r are trouble makes in nearly any languages... ("hr" sample for word ohra sounded extra choppy and super BAD).

    The fix "hr" problem, I firstly recorded "o h-" ending consonant" and CV syllable "ra". This one worked and sounded nicer but this had another problem: sound between h=>r sounded choppy and unnatural - and in fast songs "h" was unheardable and it did big me. This unnaturalness was because there was none "translation between h to r".

    I think every possible thing what I could and some day, I got a "genius idea": let's make it VCV style but the last V is replaced by C! So, a basic idea was to record "oh_ro", oto it that "h" was between preuttr and overlap and blank was placed where "r" sound ends and aliased gotten sound as "oh r".

    If you didn't understand what I mean, you can look up to my Finnish VCV VB (Toka Aki Finnish VCV) or Mike Spanish VCCV for this idea. (In Aki FIN, it's named like "VC_C" while in Mike's VB same idea is aliased as "VC C").

    Is "VC C" recording necessary? It really depends on language! If possible "VC C" are very limited and/or CC sounds super unnatural ugly and using "V C-" and "CV" doesn't satisfy enough then yes. For example for Spanish and Finnish this is very handy but for language like English, I would not recommend.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 11, 2017 ---
    EDIT: I was stupid, "alpaca" was a bad example because "lp" sounds is also possible end of word like in "help" in English, pffff...

    Basically what I tried to told that CC that where first C is anything else than "h" or "r" in general sounds fine with good oto e.g. "lp" "st" "tr" "bl" but middle CC like "hr" are just nightmare - no matter how good oto but always sounds unnaturally terrible.
     
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  7. delphic

    delphic Dead inside UTAU memer Defender of Defoko

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    Thank you a lot guys! ;w;
    It was harder than I expected though 8D
    And Yuki, I've got your example with "hr" but I don't think there are words that sound like that in Italian, but I'll try to do some research later :smile:
     
  8. 幸兔雪 (Yukito Yuki)

    幸兔雪 (Yukito Yuki) Defoko's Slaves Supporter Defender of Defoko

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    Most likely you won't need any VC C thing. I just tough to tell because as far as I know, Italian is similar to Spanish as language, so maybe how sounds works on it is same/similar too?

    As you, I would just start from reading an article about Italian language and phonology and from phonology section, write all possible vowels and consonants up. Then yo write up which C's has ending consonant sound and which not. Then if CVVC reclist, then write for example in CV+CV(+C) pattern "babab" "kakak" "lalal" etc

    Then I would think about all possible CC combination that exits (write an example word up and if CC is beginning, middle and/or ending CC).

    If beginning only like let's say "tr" sound in English, then in reclist you'll have one "tre" line. And another CC example from English: st, this one is possible in beginning and end of word. To get "- st" and "st -", I would write "stest" in reclist. And so on.

    My tip for CC: try think about as many loan words as possible because for loan words, you'll find more likely (fansy) possible CC combinations. A dictionary can be handy too to find CCs!

    And then, record a test VB and try it out! Test if VB works all right with sound that it has: if anything missing, just add a new sound on reclist.
     
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  9. delphic

    delphic Dead inside UTAU memer Defender of Defoko

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    I'll surely try that, thank you! You all helped me a lot!
     

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