The VCCV English Discourse

[Kiyoteru]

x is the most awkward sound for me to reproduce and I would hate to see what my face looks like when I'm struggling to sound decent.

The thing about x is that it's strictly used for unstressed syllables, something that native english speakers just do without ever thinking about it. To consciously isolate the sound is a difficult thing, but if you get the hang of it, it adds another dimension of realism to the end vocal. Otherwise, pronouncing the same vowel as the VCCV "u" is, in my opinion, completely acceptable.

 

[OngakuCD]

The thing about x is that it's strictly used for unstressed syllables, something that native english speakers just do without ever thinking about it. To consciously isolate the sound is a difficult thing, but if you get the hang of it, it adds another dimension of realism to the end vocal. Otherwise, pronouncing the same vowel as the VCCV "u" is, in my opinion, completely acceptable.

Very true. I'll just change the recordings containing those vowels to words that exist with that sound.

 

[Yoichi-Masaki]

The thing about x is that it's strictly used for unstressed syllables, something that native english speakers just do without ever thinking about it. To consciously isolate the sound is a difficult thing, but if you get the hang of it, it adds another dimension of realism to the end vocal. Otherwise, pronouncing the same vowel as the VCCV "u" is, in my opinion, completely acceptable.

that's what I do and it has yet to sound wrong
I do the same with a and 9 but I'm in california and it's sorta different depending on region
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Quick question, how do ya'll feel about the vowels 9 and x? To me, they sound exactly the same to a and I feel like I waste time recording samples with those vowels. The same for 6 too. Do you exempt them from your recordings or are you able to pronounce them correctly?

It will vary depending on the ust and who makes it, but I did really REALLY extensive research into each noise and I made a chart https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Eomibv2ptsmf1G3_FM4elLmPFz_e2XChJpXfuCbORXg/edit?usp=sharing

CZ had a hicup when pronouncing the shwa (aka x) it is almost exactly the u noise it is just rarely in the middle of words. shwa is present in words like about and visa. u is present in butter. it may be different regionally , but in California it is the same noise.

6 is in the word good, put, should. It doesn't match any other sound in vccv and needs to be recorded. in CZ's video she makes it sound like the x, but x is not this sound. (if you don't believe me look up schwa)

9 and a are also simmilar and depending on region the same. It's a liguistic phenomenon called the cot-caught merger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cot–caught_merger

 

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9 and a are also simmilar and depending on region the same. It's a liguistic phenomenon called the cot-caught merger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cot–caught_merger

I've never heard of this before, but really interesting read. 9 and a are the exact same to me, and almost all the words that page used as examples share the same phoneme when I say them.

 

[WinterdrivE]

I don't merge them. It sounds like the unmerged sound samples on wikipedia when i say them.

 

[vocasavant]

I can force the difference between "9" and "a," but in daily speech, a Southern accent combines the two. As for the schwa and "a," those aren't combined. Usually, they're left entirely out, unless at the end of a word.

 

[Yoichi-Masaki]

I've never heard of this before, but really interesting read. 9 and a are the exact same to me, and almost all the words that page used as examples share the same phoneme when I say them.

I was listening to a podcast about language hosted by the Adam ruins everything guy and the linguist he had brought it up. It was really nice because I've never heard anybody use the 9 noise and it was very baffling to me.

 

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I was listening to a podcast about language hosted by the Adam ruins everything guy and the linguist he had brought it up. It was really nice because I've never heard anybody use the 9 noise and it was very baffling to me.

That's really cool! I wonder what it could sound like outside of matching a.

 

[vocasavant]

That's really cool! I wonder what it could sound like outside of matching a.

You can hear "9" in British English often taking the place of a sound like "bat." It reminds me of the Japanese "o."

 

[someguyperson]

HONESTLY with Fresa I'm really surprised she sounds anything like the japanese bank from these tiny samples so far--- I literally did a complete change of accent to record the VCCV and yet it still sounds pretty normal? Also I'm reaaal bad at otoing and recording and I procrastinate way too much so if I ever get this done I'm releasing it without even thinking of multipitch...maybe as an addon.
I'm reaaaaal glad I can somehow produce a natural american...ish accent, it helps so much with this reclist

 

[OngakuCD]

]I was listening to a podcast about language hosted by the Adam ruins everything guy and the linguist he had brought it up. It was really nice because I've never heard anybody use the 9 noise and it was very baffling to me.

You wouldn't happen to remember the name of that podcast segment would you?

 

[OngakuCD]

New topic: What are some of the challenges you think VCCV encounters?

I think the level of visibility is small, but this is a relatively new language for UTAU. I also think not a lot of ust to choose from plays a roll. Also, just gaining respect. People have this notion that a voice-bank is going to be 100% comprehensible. The reality is that actual singers are sometime incomprehensible when they sing and we need the guidance of lyrics. I can understand it the voice bank is muffled or something. I think English voice banks are under harsher criticism than Japanese voice banks. But that what I think

 

[Kiyoteru]

I think the level of visibility is small, but this is a relatively new language for UTAU. I also think not a lot of ust to choose from plays a roll.

When you look at just English UTAU instead of UTAU as a whole, VCCV is most certainly dominating. CZ has been doing work with UTAU English for several years and has gained the most trust for it, while other players are newer and much less known. So, it's not really a "new and unpopular" thing at all.

 

[OngakuCD]

When you look at just English UTAU instead of UTAU as a whole, VCCV is most certainly dominating. CZ has been doing work with UTAU English for several years and has gained the most trust for it, while other players are newer and much less known. So, it's not really a "new and unpopular" thing at all.

Yes, in the Micro sense, English UTAU is the prevailing alternative language for utau but I was referring to the macro. Relatively new is probably not the best choice of words when CVVC has been around for a few years. When I'm talking about visibility, I'm not saying its unpopular in any way, but that its like a niche within the community. I would like for it to become a norm within the community as a whole.

 

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When I'm talking about visibility, I'm not saying its unpopular in any way, but that its like a niche within the community. I would like for it to become a norm within the community as a whole.

I also would like to see UTAU English become more of a norm in the community. Everyone makes and uses Japanese banks but no one really seems to want to expand beyond covers. What good is a Japanese vocal for original songs if I don't know Japanese? I don't want to be limited to only ever doing covers, and since English is the only language I know it benefits me to create and have access to more vocals of that language.

 

[OngakuCD]

I also would like to see UTAU English become more of a norm in the community. Everyone makes and uses Japanese banks but no one really seems to want to expand beyond covers. What good is a Japanese vocal for original songs if I don't know Japanese? I don't want to be limited to only ever doing covers, and since English is the only language I know it benefits me to create and have access to more vocals of that language.

Exactly. I can remember when VCV was emerging and it was so uncommon. Now VCV pretty much the norm. English utau have been a work in progress, but though its been present for sometime, its still common. I guess because I am in the beginning I don't see anything; maybe long after I'm gone from the community, VCCV English will be up there with JP VCV.

I wouldn't dare to make an original with a Japanese bank. First, I would have to write the song in English, then find someone to translate. With an English VB, I can skip part two. The first two originals I did where for CVVC English.

 

[Yoichi-Masaki]

New topic: What are some of the challenges you think VCCV encounters?

I think the level of visibility is small, but this is a relatively new language for UTAU. I also think not a lot of ust to choose from plays a roll. Also, just gaining respect. People have this notion that a voice-bank is going to be 100% comprehensible. The reality is that actual singers are sometime incomprehensible when they sing and we need the guidance of lyrics. I can understand it the voice bank is muffled or something. I think English voice banks are under harsher criticism than Japanese voice banks. But that what I think

I think that maybe we need to understand that VCCV, while really good, is probably still a stepping stone. I think VCCV may be the CVVC of english. It is good, but I think VCV English will need to become a standard too. At the very least there needs to be a longer VCCV with every begging and end note in it, because CCV notes are the most likely to mess up.

right now were at a point that is similar to when I joined utau in 2012. People were happy to record CV banks because VCV was "too many" notes. Some started recording VCV, but VCV multipitch was pretty uncommon. People started warming up to the idea more when multipitch VCV started really showing how amazing it was through songs like +Reverse. No somebody using CV regularly is uncommon. (though if anything ENG CV-VC is like JPN CV,and ENG VC-CV is like JPN CVVC) People need to get used to the idea that really fluent english is going to take more recording than they are used to.

that being said, it is true that sometimes lyrics are needed to understand english singers too. VCCV is pretty understandable in slow and medium songs, it's just fast songs that make it harder.

 

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My only real problem with VCV English is how you would create a full reclist and multipitch bank without hitting the oto limit. How feasible is it to use? Cz's aliases and usage for VCCV makes sense to me, it's simple, but VCV English sounds like a lot of work to use. That doesnt mean I'm against trying it, though.

VCCV is already 1066 recordings. I'd say that's a fairly large amount and more recordings than most are used to.

 

[Kiyoteru]

We're getting off topic here. This is a VCCV English thread, so if you'd like to discuss your own reclist, it may be better suited to somewhere else.

 

[Yoichi-Masaki]

We're getting off topic here. This is a VCCV English thread, so if you'd like to discuss your own reclist, it may be better suited to somewhere else.

ah, sorry, that wasn't really my intention, I just got carried away.