Pros and Cons: VCV vs CVVC?

[PrinceofHades]

Alright, I've looked pretty much everywhere but have not yet found anything giving me the information I need.
Could you guys compare and contrast/give pros and cons for VCV and CVVC in terms of:
Transitions/Smoothness
Ease of Recording (although I have heard that CVVC is easier to record, I'd like a bit more detail. ^^; )
Ease of Use (Especially if you're creating your own USTs from a midi or from scratch)
Ease of OTO
And the final one, a sort of general statement: Is CVVC in any way superior in quality to VCV, or vice versa?

I understand that some of these things will be "tainted" with personal bias.

I'm also really sorry if this HAS been answered anywhere and I just missed it. ^^;

 

[N.Zo]

VCV pros:
Smooth transitions
Very easy to make usts from if you know your way around the program
Simple to record with OREMO
Often smoother than cvvc banks
Limited to Japanese

Cons
A Lot of recording
Difficulty with otoing as a beginner
Takes up a lot of space

CVVC
Smooth depending on list (Zurui, giraffey, and Adlez27 have amazing lists. Delta CVVC is kind of choppy due to the lack of vowel strings)
Very simple to record with the proper and improper programs
Oto is fairly simple

Cons
choppy depending on lists
Often has more unneeded samples like vcv lists
Ust's are difficult to make, but plugins exist that automatically edit your ust to CVVC

All in all, they both have their pros and Cons. The most effective way to get the smoothest experience is to try a combination of both. Giraffey's CVVC list works much like it.
In my opinion, cvvc is better.

 

[PrinceofHades]

VCV pros:
Smooth transitions
Very easy to make usts from if you know your way around the program
Simple to record with OREMO
Often smoother than cvvc banks
Limited to Japanese

Cons
A Lot of recording
Difficulty with otoing as a beginner
Takes up a lot of space

CVVC
Smooth depending on list (Zurui, giraffey, and Adlez27 have amazing lists. Delta CVVC is kind of choppy due to the lack of vowel strings)
Very simple to record with the proper and improper programs
Oto is fairly simple

Cons
choppy depending on lists
Often has more unneeded samples like vcv lists
Ust's are difficult to make, but plugins exist that automatically edit your ust to CVVC

All in all, they both have their pros and Cons. The most effective way to get the smoothest experience is to try a combination of both. Giraffey's CVVC list works much like it.
In my opinion, cvvc is better.

Thank you, this is really helpful.

 

[Nohkara]

Pretty much what previous said plus in CVVC it's easier (in Japanese CVVC case) to make it say naturally words like "kitte" きって (general all words which has little "tsu". Little "tsu" just means "double consonant" if that makes sense).

I think that VCV are generally easy to use than CVVC (because no needed much manual or plug-in editing). But CVVC are better handle "double consonants" and you can "accent" better vocalist if that makes sense :'D

My personal advise is that if you cannot record very long VCV sessions (which takes 1.5h) then go with CVVC. This depends of reclist but USUALLY CVVC takes just around 20 to 30 minutes to record.

With VCV you will need oto about +950 strings while in CVVC just 400-500. So: If you want to make faster then just go with CVVC. CVVC can sound as good as VCV if used well and tuned. ^^

Oh and last thing:

This IS possible but it's really super worky: Record VCV, do VCV and CVVC oto for vb.

But yeah, pretty much like I said before: Do CVVC if you can't record and/or oto for long.

 

[Kiyoteru]

VCV
Transitions/Smoothness
Since a VCV segment contains the entire transition from one syllable to the next, by default, it will be smooth. If you place the overlap too deeply into the transition, you might lose some of that, so the safest place to put it is within a consistent area of the previous vowel. The only thing you have to worry about is how the vowels crossfade together, and even then, there's Moresampler (which uses data from a file analysis to make a smoother transition than editing the audio)
Ease of Recording
Recording takes a long time, and it can be confusing to read the samples. However, if you are fluent in reading kana, have an extremely efficient reclist, and use OREMO with a guideBGM, you can knock out a basic japanese VCV bank in less than 15 minutes.
Ease of Use
With japanese, you'll have to deal with converters. There's five ways I can think of: AutoVCV, which is part of UTAU-Synth and Shareware PC UTAU; the old CV to VCV plugin; the AutoCVVC plugin, which has VCV as a mode; the bizz plugin, which includes VCV conversion; and Presamp. AutoVCV and presamp require no editing other than ensuring that the UST is in hiragana.
When it comes to other languages, oh man, using VCV is so much fun. Depending on what samples and clusters are included, you can make smooth stuff so fast. Sure, you still have to type things manually, but try out a bank like Adrian and doing english is such a fun process. With less notes to contend with, the file itself is less cluttered.
Ease of OTO
VCV otos are very simple, but very tedious. If you use OREMO to record hiragana with a guideBGM, you can use the built-in generator and get pretty accurate results. With Tady's generator, you can make aliases for any vcv reclist, if you set it up correctly. However, you still have to go in and adjust everything yourself. Japanese is 7 times the length of a CV voicebank, and any other reclist will be hellishly longer. So much so that VCV reclisters for other languages frequently have to worry about the OTO limit.

CVVC
Transitions/Smoothness
CVVC is based around using CVs and VCs to augment them. There are two main types of VCs, the transitional type and the stopping type. The stopping type are pretty much just used for languages that need to have consonants at the end of syllables, so with japanese, you only need to worry about the transitional type. If not OTO'd correctly, you'll have the pitfalls of a poor CV, as well as VCs that could possibly sound awkwardly forced and make the "double consonant" sound. However, if well-configured, CVVC has the same smoothness as VCV, while offering more flexibility in the timing of the transition itself.
Ease of Recording
CVVC reclists need not to be strictly hiragana, as they're typically aliased by hand into kana anyway. This makes them a lot easier to read. Depending on the list, the recording time can be a bit more than CV, or a million times less. It's great for busting out tons of quick voicebanks.
Ease of Use
Use can be tricky compared to VCV. You need to make a lot of small notes in order to construct the transitions, which can get the UST pretty cluttered up. However, the tiny notes could be taken advantage of for the purpose of tuning, and by adjusting the proportions of the lengths, you can artfully change the sound of the transition for effect. Presamp was made for CVVC, so it can automatically turn a hiragana ust to cvvc without you needing to edit it all, a very big advantage. The autoCVVC plugin does occasionally glitch, but it allows easier customization.
Ease of OTO
At the most, CVVC japanese could be something like 3 times the length of CV (disregarding extras). You need to have a good knowledge of OTO theory in order to effectively do both the CV and VC parts, but once you got it down, the OTO is done pretty quickly. You might have a base oto for aliases and some values depending on the reclist, but there's no way to generate it the same way as a VCV.

Is CVVC in any way superior in quality to VCV, or vice versa?
In terms of the end result of using the voicebank, I believe that CVVC has more expressive qualities than VCV. When recording voicebanks, it takes less time (even when VCV has a potentially very efficient workflow), so the samples will be much more consistent. This opens up the possibility to make more sets for the same bank in less time, so you could easily make multipitch or something. VCV has been popular, but mainly because it was the second type of bank developed, not necessarily because it was better than CVVC (which wasn't around for UTAU yet.) While it is fun to use, you are pretty much locked into what the bank gives you (unless you add CVVC otos to it), so you can't (for example) make a certain consonant sound naturally slow when it was originally recorded to be fast.

 

[PrinceofHades]

VCV
Transitions/Smoothness
Since a VCV segment contains the entire transition from one syllable to the next, by default, it will be smooth. If you place the overlap too deeply into the transition, you might lose some of that, so the safest place to put it is within a consistent area of the previous vowel. The only thing you have to worry about is how the vowels crossfade together, and even then, there's Moresampler (which uses data from a file analysis to make a smoother transition than editing the audio)
Ease of Recording
Recording takes a long time, and it can be confusing to read the samples. However, if you are fluent in reading kana, have an extremely efficient reclist, and use OREMO with a guideBGM, you can knock out a basic japanese VCV bank in less than 15 minutes.
Ease of Use
With japanese, you'll have to deal with converters. There's five ways I can think of: AutoVCV, which is part of UTAU-Synth and Shareware PC UTAU; the old CV to VCV plugin; the AutoCVVC plugin, which has VCV as a mode; the bizz plugin, which includes VCV conversion; and Presamp. AutoVCV and presamp require no editing other than ensuring that the UST is in hiragana.
When it comes to other languages, oh man, using VCV is so much fun. Depending on what samples and clusters are included, you can make smooth stuff so fast. Sure, you still have to type things manually, but try out a bank like Adrian and doing english is such a fun process. With less notes to contend with, the file itself is less cluttered.
Ease of OTO
VCV otos are very simple, but very tedious. If you use OREMO to record hiragana with a guideBGM, you can use the built-in generator and get pretty accurate results. With Tady's generator, you can make aliases for any vcv reclist, if you set it up correctly. However, you still have to go in and adjust everything yourself. Japanese is 7 times the length of a CV voicebank, and any other reclist will be hellishly longer. So much so that VCV reclisters for other languages frequently have to worry about the OTO limit.

CVVC
Transitions/Smoothness
CVVC is based around using CVs and VCs to augment them. There are two main types of VCs, the transitional type and the stopping type. The stopping type are pretty much just used for languages that need to have consonants at the end of syllables, so with japanese, you only need to worry about the transitional type. If not OTO'd correctly, you'll have the pitfalls of a poor CV, as well as VCs that could possibly sound awkwardly forced and make the "double consonant" sound. However, if well-configured, CVVC has the same smoothness as VCV, while offering more flexibility in the timing of the transition itself.
Ease of Recording
CVVC reclists need not to be strictly hiragana, as they're typically aliased by hand into kana anyway. This makes them a lot easier to read. Depending on the list, the recording time can be a bit more than CV, or a million times less. It's great for busting out tons of quick voicebanks.
Ease of Use
Use can be tricky compared to VCV. You need to make a lot of small notes in order to construct the transitions, which can get the UST pretty cluttered up. However, the tiny notes could be taken advantage of for the purpose of tuning, and by adjusting the proportions of the lengths, you can artfully change the sound of the transition for effect. Presamp was made for CVVC, so it can automatically turn a hiragana ust to cvvc without you needing to edit it all, a very big advantage. The autoCVVC plugin does occasionally glitch, but it allows easier customization.
Ease of OTO
At the most, CVVC japanese could be something like 3 times the length of CV (disregarding extras). You need to have a good knowledge of OTO theory in order to effectively do both the CV and VC parts, but once you got it down, the OTO is done pretty quickly. You might have a base oto for aliases and some values depending on the reclist, but there's no way to generate it the same way as a VCV.

Is CVVC in any way superior in quality to VCV, or vice versa?
In terms of the end result of using the voicebank, I believe that CVVC has more expressive qualities than VCV. When recording voicebanks, it takes less time (even when VCV has a potentially very efficient workflow), so the samples will be much more consistent. This opens up the possibility to make more sets for the same bank in less time, so you could easily make multipitch or something. VCV has been popular, but mainly because it was the second type of bank developed, not necessarily because it was better than CVVC (which wasn't around for UTAU yet.) While it is fun to use, you are pretty much locked into what the bank gives you (unless you add CVVC otos to it), so you can't (for example) make a certain consonant sound naturally slow when it was originally recorded to be fast.

Wow, that is a lot of detail. XD Thank you very much! I really appreciate it.

@Pupuomena , thank you very much as well. This is all really helpful.

 

[수연 <Suyeon>]

VCV:
- The Beautiful: you can combine CV, CVVC, and standard VCV into a single bank for maximum compatibility
- The Good: it's generally standardized in how it should properly be set up and done (guidebgm, tempo, oto gen, how to oto, etc. etc.) other than the reclists that usually get peddled to the community. UTAU-PC has plenty of plugins and Shareware has the built-in feature of auto-conversion for hiragana usts.
- The Bad: a lot of the reclists that get peddled to the community are excessive (Ritsu, Ruko, and other reclists that have non-Japanese extras, redundancy in sounds, or extras that are considered cosmetic minor differences in pronunciation)
- The Ugly: it takes prior recording experience and a lot of time and effort - one messed up string in a bank made with a non-repetitive reclist can make things unravel easily. It also takes up a lot of space on your drive if you decide to have multiple pitches, appends with their own multiple pitches, etc. and you have to contend with the oto size limitations. It also seems like banks of this type are more likely to break under UTAU-Synth for no apparent reason. While you should have this anyway to use UTAU if you're a Windows user, for those who for some reason can't properly switch to Japanese locale, they'll be left out since your average VCV bank is encoded in Japanese. VCV is generally confined to the Japanese language (this hasn't stopped others from trying to make VCV English as well as VCV for other languages, but very very few [if any] have shown definitive progress on such a method).

CVVC:
- The Beautiful: you can do virtually any language you want efficiently. You'll get the freedom to set up your reclist with exactly as much as you need and don't have to rely on a reclist made by others if you don't want to (heck, a bank in this format can simply be made by doubling the output you usually record with an unstringed CV reclist and adding vowel-vowel transitions).
- The Good: it's easier to record than VCV and can be anywhere from 2 mora to 5 and shouldn't take you several days/hours. You have more control over transitions, accent, and other little facets that can make a voice sound more natural (or flexibility as mentioned earlier).
- The Bad: you will need strong oto theory to handle the CV portions and bad VC transitions can lead to awkwardness or voiced consonants where they're not needed (as mentioned earlier)
- The Ugly: if you don't have plugins to convert or presamp as well as 1) resampler patch and 2) a slow machine... you will have a long wait for output. Conversion can make a ust feel bloated or hard to edit cause you'll be dealing with a bunch of small notes. Nothing thus far is entirely standard like with VCV, so a lot of different sources will have different information and ways of doing things (for ex. Giraffey's list is mostly CVVC, but has a fair share of VCV in it as well). Everyone has their own way of reclisting and setting up their banks which can make jumping from one bank to another a jarring experience. There are no usts made for CVVC - you will either use presamp or convert and edit as needed.

Which is better?
I'm personally biased and of course will advocate for CVVC as it's more efficient - which is what you want if you don't have unlimited time to record, re-record for a bad string, oto, and otherwise spend days on what can be done in a matter of hours. I work 8 hours a day and am at the mercy of a less than ideal recording environment (noisy parents, an occasionally noisy dog, the elements outside such as cars, etc.), so the less time I spend recording to get the results I need, the better.