Sugarcoating: The little discussed illness sweeping the UTAUnation

[Pupperoni Pizza]

"The truth is sweeter than your bitter-sweet lies." -DogToast

"Sugar is a drug that children are addicted to." -DystoP

This my spiel over a big issue that is going on and has been an issue for a very long time.
And that is the subject of sugarcoating.

Sugarcoating is the act of taking the truth or fact of the matter and diluting it for the faint of heart.
It is intended to make people feel less bad about things by making it less blunt.

Please refrain from this.
All you are doing is lying.

When you do this you are making them feel good. Sure that fine and dandy but you are detrimentally impacting their improvement as an Utau user and as a person.

You hiding the fact is doing nothing but feeding someone endless compliments and it makes them soft, so soft infact that when they get real criticism they explode and retaliate.

They can't take the fact that they aren't perfect amd there is room for honest improvement.

A common example of this occurs in the chatbox unbelievably often. A person will post something and ask for opinions and nearly everyone praises and gives compliments without real criticism.
And those who do give constructive criticism are attacked for being harsh or ignored for having unpopular/useless opinions.

Here is how it is, if you are a person honestly looking for help/criticism, then you better grow a shell and take it for what it is.
It's better to know the truth and cash in on it for some honest and good improvement then to stay as is perpetually.

And to those of you who are of a low skill level/still learning, stop falsely giving people critique when you are not good enough to understand what you are saying.
All you are doing is blurting out nonsense and bad advice and you need to stop. This is really bad and holds you AND the other individual back.

If you are someone who is guilty of sugarcoating the truth, then stop and tell the whole truth. telling the facts as-is is mich easier on you as you no longer need to think on sweetening up he wording.

And the final thing I want to discuss...
Selfish-Coaters

The most terrible thing I have seen are people who do this.
These people purposely make people feel SO "good-enough" to the extent that they don't improve.
So that way, that individual can feel empowered to say that they are better than someone when they themselves aren't very good at all.
These are also called noob-leetist and several other terms that I cannot mention.

You know who you are and I must say that you are a Leach on the community and you do nothing but feel of of people's trust. You leave nothing but your bitterness wherever you go and should be ashamed of yourself.

These are the breed of bad that ridicule those who take the time to give and honest reply to the mistakes and how you can improve.
In all honesty, if you don't want to improve then you shouldn't bother at all.

That is all I wanted to say.
I will take a bit of time to edit this to better explain my point, please understand that I am in no way attacking a specific person and these are generalizations.

Remember, your lies may seem sweet at first, but will do nothing but leave you both with a bitter taste.
The truth may seem sour at first, but after the shock you will realize how sweat it really is.

 

[Kiyoteru]

dandy

*snickers*

But yes. I honestly agree with this post so much. I'm really glad that someone actually came out and said everything.

It bothers me to no end when I see people who refuse to listen to advice, assuming that they're already at some high professional level when they're not. People who assume they already know everything that there is to know, and that they're at a standing to speak to experienced people as if the roles are switched.

 

[DayDreamerStratus]

Here's the problem with some UTAU users that I really don't like though: They don't know HOW to take criticism. If you say anything other than the sweet, you'll end up getting deleted, blocked, and ignored. I think the best approach to handle this is to be gentle, perhaps gain a friendship and offer to help, and then once you have a strong friendship be a bit more cold. For me I honestly need criticism, otherwise I'll never improve. I still don't know every little bit and corner of the utau software, and I still am gonna ask for help with the most common problems. Another thing I dislike though is when people criticize my art or something, and I really didn't ask for their input. I try to avoid lying and instead offer a bit of help and advice. The best thing you can do is try to figure out what to say and when you should say it. This can big. If someone doesn't approach you for help, or it is clear that they are feeling a bit sensitive, you really shouldn't go full-out on saying, "Well your UTAU sounds worse than a dying cat because of the bad quality recordings, unnecessary pitching, and sloppy oto. I feel like if you want to tell the cold hard truth, go right ahead but please be careful.
EDIT: You know, there's more I can add to this. I honestly am fairly new to being apart of the community. Sure, I'm a member of the other vocal synth communities, but this one is definitely distinct because literally anyone can get their hands on it with ease. I think one huge thing is that many people will come in not knowing anything about an instrument, since this is technically. You have to know how to tune it, its quirks, and most importantly the fundamentals of making it sound good. I hate it when people don't properly know their musical theory and treat things like this just as some sort of toy. It's a thing that deserves so much respect. And by not learning or teaching certain elements, you are essentially depriving yourself or another person of the best use of it possible. It really doesn't hurt to know all of the "fancy shmancy" stuff in terms of theory, and I think you should know the software side too as well a bit. Please don't be afraid to help someone FIX their mistakes, don't put them down because they made them. All in all, have respect for the community and the software, and please realize what you have walked into. It hurts all of us when you release an original CV with an american accent and bad oto that has no logic whatsoever. This software has potential, but you must be patient and understand what it's about and who it was made for.
-Stratus

 

[Kiyoteru]

Just because people remove sugar-coating doesn't mean things immediately turn to insults. Suppose someone posts a demo of their first voicebank.

Sugarcoating: The vocal tone sounds absolutely fantastic! I think they're really suited for that cutesy sort of pop song, you know? The mixing levels have got the volumes just right, and the timing is spot on too. I think you just need a little bit of adjustment in the voicebank, but I'm super excited to download your voicebank once it's released!

Constructive criticism: Not too bad for a first voicebank, the vowels are pronounced pretty well. I think the OTO needs fixing, so here's the link to an OTO guide. Don't forget to clear any USTs you use. As for the design, you can probably find some OC creation guides if you search google? There's a lot of space to improve.

Insult: Where did you record this? It sounds like the built-in microphone of an old laptop. Why can't you find a quiet room, at least? The OTO is so horrible, it probably doesn't exist at all. The song choice was really bad and your design looks like a Miku recolor, AGAIN. Ugh. I'm tired of people these days, I don't even want to bother helping you.

 

[수연 <Suyeon>]

Agreed, DogToast.
One has to keep in mind that this is largely a public medium. When you put yourself out there, you have to be able to handle it when people don't have positive things to say - whether the critique was asked for or not. It's assumed that you know that you're going to get negative feedback if you straight up suck at something (let's be honest, we all tend to overestimate our abilities in a skill to some extent when we're not underestimating ourselves in another area). So, you can either pack up and go home or you give critics a reason to say otherwise. Look at the creator of FNAF: he was doing Christian games that were 2D with sprites and the sprites were considered ugly and creepy. He took the criticisms of 'ugly and creepy' and made something more fitting that people enjoyed. One has to learn how to turn a negative into a positive or they'll stay stagnant.

 

[Pupperoni Pizza]

As a brief reply, I am saying this.

Sugarcoating is not a deterrent for insults. Much in the way sugarcoating is used to deaden the pain for positive critiques, it is also used to slide insults under the table while still being used to make an individual feel terrible.

And in reply to Adlez's post.
I like your use of examples, I do feel your insult explanation is a bit unbalanced, however.
The first two sentences are more of an example of being blunt, rather than a true insult.
Only the final parts afterwards are what was able to make it viewable as an insult on any level.

Though I must add that being blunt in itself is not an insult and is just an art of being extremely concise and to the point in a way that can go against the grain.

 

[DayDreamerStratus]

As a brief reply, I am saying this.
And in reply to Adlez's post.
I like your use of examples, I do feel your insult explanation is a bit unbalanced, however.
The first two sentences are more of an example of being blunt, rather than a true insult.
Only the final parts afterwards are what was able to make it viewable as an insult on any level.

Though I must add that being blunt in itself is not an insult and is just an art of being extremely concise and to the point in a way that can go against the grain.

That's what I thought! :o Here's better examples:
Sugar-coating: OMG YOUR UTAU SOUNDS AMAZING!! Your mixing is absolutely mind-blowing. With a little tweaking I'm sure she could easily sound like a human! :o it already sounds better than v4!
Insult: Omg you disgusting weeb did you even try? Or were you more concerned about your character looking so "sugoi" please. My 5 year old brother could do a better drawing than yours. The oto is absolute sh** and I would rather listen to nails on chalkboard than that gross thing again!
Constructive Critcism: It's not bad for a first Demo, but you should try using a different resampler and tweak the oto a bit. You might want to consider mixing in a DAW like Reaper instead of Audacity..

 

[KNΞMΛTCS]

Oh man do I hate the whole praise thing. seriously, you could record a voicebank on a 5 year old flip phone with like 10 samples, do absolutely no oto editing, and still get tons of "Sounds great!" comments. Sugar-coating just reduces your community and ultimately results in more selfish, insult-spitting people. If people were to do more constructive criticism (or even blunt criticism for that matter), future voicebank recorders and UST'ers would have a chance to do something better, to push the limit. The whole point of this entire community is to get the UTAU world further, not bottleneck it and bring it to its knees. So we definitely need to stop trying to be "nice" to novice peers, and instead tell them the truth about their work. Next time you here the smartphone voicebank, or the fifteen-minute made cookie-cutter cover of some song, go ahead and point out those flaws (without being rude obviously)!

 

[Pupperoni Pizza]

That's what I thought! :o Here's better examples:
Sugar-coating: OMG YOUR UTAU SOUNDS AMAZING!! Your mixing is absolutely mind-blowing. With a little tweaking I'm sure she could easily sound like a human! :o it already sounds better than v4!
Insult: Omg you disgusting weeb did you even try? Or were you more concerned about your character looking so "sugoi" please. My 5 year old brother could do a better drawing than yours. The oto is absolute sh** and I would rather listen to nails on chalkboard than that gross thing again!
Constructive Critcism: It's not bad for a first Demo, but you should try using a different resampler and tweak the oto a bit. You might want to consider mixing in a DAW like Reaper instead of Audacity..

I do not see how this adds to the discussion or strengthens the argument.
This was kindof unnecessary as it was already said at one point or another.
[DOUBLEPOST=1431754608][/DOUBLEPOST]I would like add, while being mildly off-topic, that those who intend to help, but knowingly spread inaccurate info are also unhelpful in the situation.

 

[FelineWasteland]

As someone who's given and received a lot of critiques from years of being an art student, the main tip that I can say are to always point out the good AND the bad. Point out areas that need improvement [don't sugarcoat it; be honest, but not necessarily harsh, especially when dealing with a new user], but ALSO point out what was done well. As a peer critic, you've got to find the good balance of positive and negative; omitting one or the other can be detrimental to the growth of the artist in question.

As for receiving critiques, understand that negative feedback is almost never a personal attack. Even if the critic is not particularly friendly about it, the intent is just to help you build your skills, not to tear down your confidence. Basically, it's intended to be a motivator, not an inhibitor. If you're not looking for critique, just be honest; it's okay to just want people to notice your hard work [we ALL do it sometimes], but if you ask for advice, you best be prepared to deal with it and not throw a fit because someone said it needs work when you really just wanted compliments.

 

[VaNexuS]

Okay, so, on the topic of ~ Sugarcoating ~ and of course ~ The like, and etc ~ - I certainly agree with you Toast.
Now, in regards to >how one reacts and how one must say things, in terms of >How one reacts to critique as opposed to a sugarcoated response and How one chooses to state their thoughts on them - If you're very much used to getting responses of how your work that it sounds "ok", "good", "nice" or even if you get an "AMAZING" sound occasionally, .. DO NOT OVERREACT IF SOMEONE TELLS YOU OTHERWISE AND LETS YOU KNOW, //SOMETHING// may be fixed. DO NOT ASSUME THAT THEY ARE ONLY TRYING TO OFFEND YOU. If someone simply doesn't like the quality of your work and states why, some things you could fix up, and doesn't blatantly say anything along the strict lines of, "This sucks/its awful/such trash", well then, you have no means to get mad at them. .. IT MAY BE UPSETTING TO HEAR, and by all means be upset, but! BE HOPEFUL! YOU CAN AND WILL IMPROVE if you take these notes into consideration and make effort to incorporate them into your gaining of experiences! Also to those giving this advice, DO NOT GO OFF ON THE OTHER IF THEY DO NOT TAKE YOUR ADVICE WELL. ... If anything, try to reason it out with them. ... If they just will not take it, then by all means, drop it and move on. .. The hope is that they'll realize you weren't being all crude and uptight and that the only wrong was that they didn't really listen.
Now this doesn't exactly happen as nicely as it could be, but hey, if we could all just learn some TACT-- and be considerate to our fellow users.. then well-- perhaps there'd be more hope out there.. Not saying there's little, but.. there isn't a lot either.. honestly. .. Now, HAVING TACT is not by any means Sugarcoating... If you know how to say something without lashing and bashing, then that's great, but if you know how to say something with the other person in mind, then that's greater. Sugarcoating, is actually very insensitive to the other person.. You may be trying to seem nice... but in all honesty... You're drifting the person in the wrong direction.... If you really want to help them, then PLEASE, LEAD THEM INTO THE RIGHT DIRECTION WITH STEPS/INSTRUCTIONS, EVEN--, on what and how to fix up their work and ways... I may be being a bit broad now, but this is just how I see it.. ; If you get too used to hearing such //positive things// with little to no negatives, then you may be a bit jumpy when you hear otherwise.. Don't let this eat you, or overwhelm you, even.. Take it like this; "Though you may be at your current state of ability and/or skill, there will and is ALWAYS room for improvement. It is GROWTH." THIS APPLIES TO EVERYONE. Now, even those giving the advice and critique have room for this growth themselves.. Those receiving the advice and critique should always appreciate and take those words to consideration.
A good, decent critique would consist of, if any, positives-, but will get right down into the negatives and grind even more into how to fix it, be it ranging from vague suggestions to actual recommendations that will BENEFIT the work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. This is all I have to say for now on the related matter-.. But alas, my thoughts for now. I honestly just wish this sort of thing wouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp, honestly..

 

[Pupperoni Pizza]

I would like to add one more thing.

If someone takes it as harshly as to go out of their way to attack you and publicly ridicule you for trying to be helpful, then that individual should not be taken seriously as a user.
If possible, drop all attempts to help them and leave them in their filth to ferment.
Only truly strong people should even make the attempt to reform them and most of the time there is no help to be done.

Don't let these people hurt you, you will come out the better person.

 

[VaNexuS]

I would like to add one more thing.

If someone takes it as harshly as to go out of their way to attack you and publicly ridicule you for trying to be helpful, then that individual should not be taken seriously as a user.
If possible, drop all attempts to help them and leave them in their filth to ferment.
Only truly strong people should even make the attempt to reform them and most of the time there is no help to be done.

Don't let these people hurt you.

To be honest, if they take it to that degree, then they are taking it to a level lower than most all serious users... .. Though, there's the also the point that, if they get that bad, then please, .. just don't bother. They aren't worth any more of your time and concern.
This goes to say, >after a while and certain point.. of.. "fermenting" .. they become soft.. //weak// even.. to where it will be hard and difficult to shovel themselves out of their clump.. After saying this, only those who truly desire to improve WILL make the EFFORT to improve and accept critique/advice... If you simply do not take any of this, then You, poor diluted soul, are not growing. .. This goes as well goes as saying; >Everyone grows/improves at their own pace.. It happens, be it slowly, gradually, but DO NOT PUSH YOURSELF BACKWARDS BY DECLINING AND RECLINING AT GOOD, HONEST HELP.
... HONESTY IS KEY. HARSHNESS IS SUPPLEMENTARY, but not required by any means... CRUELTY IS BY NO MEANS ESSENTIAL. .. You do not attack anyone for their level of skill, NOR do you attack someone for OFFENDING you for pointing it out... Don't lash out.. this goes out to either party. If someone attacks, you simply revoke, .. not provoke. .. Now I said being harsh is supplementary. .. I mean this in the sense that, If you are honest, it may come out a bit rough, and honesty.. the TRUTH.. it can hurt.. You can't help that fact, No one can help the fact that IF YOU'RE TOLD SOMETHING THAT YOU REALIZE IS TRUE, you certainly know it is. The feelings after could be ones of bitter origin.. Alas, this is debatable.. but I believe that if everyone can take these sort of things with a ready, open mind, then it only makes the impact a lot less stagnant.

 

[McCloud]

Yes, I completely agree with this as well. And now that we're on this subject, I'm going to say this right now: Whenever I ask for criticism on something I made I want a completely honest response. I promise I won't get offended or mad at you or anything like that so please do me a favor and point out flaws in my works and give me advice on how I can improve them.

I'm going to be honest though, I can understand how people who get upset when they get negative criticism feel because I used to be like that before I realized that I could use negative criticism to improve. So, to those of you who hate receiving negative criticism, at least try to make an effort to see negative criticism as a tool to help you improve instead something to make you feel bad about your works, believe me, it definitely does help.

 

[Hentai]

Wow, I have the perfect UtaForum Resource Directory™ article for this thread!

The Art of Critique by @IrisFlower

Told ya there was a resource for every occasion on the UtaForum Resource Directory™.



P.S.
This post was sponsored by the UtaForum Resource Directory™

 

[Pupperoni Pizza]

Wow, I have the perfect UtaForum Resource Directory™ article for this thread!

The Art of Critique by @IrisFlower

Told ya there was a resource for every occasion on the UtaForum Resource Directory™.



P.S.
This post was sponsored by the UtaForum Resource Directory™

I know this exists, but the fact of "how" something should be critiqued still doesn't bring up the issue strongly and in a way that brings up the issue.

That is a good resource and people ought to reference it, but it's existence still doesn't change the fact that sugarcoating is still very prominent, even in a proper critique structure.

 

[oteto]

*crunches sugary flakes in caramel coffee creamer* In my opinion, when I hear something I like I say so. I generally dont offer critique or advice on improvement, because im one of those low level users. Sometimes I will toss ideas at people, and they often figure it out themselves. I dont think telling someone you enjoyed their work and appreciate their efforts is sugarcoating, even if ya dont mention a little quirk or flaw here n there. Its not like we are training for war here, just derpin around with singing robots. I have received bits n pieces of constructive critique here n there but im happy with "its cute" which is commonly all that is said. Also I agree, ya shouldnt lie, but its always encouraging to hear a nice statement about your work. I guess thats my thoughts on the "issue"

 

[Buck]

It should be noted that "honesty" and "bluntness" are not equal. Honesty is the important factor here, not bluntness. Bluntness is sometimes required, but sometimes is not always. If there is a nice way to say something without sacrificing honesty, why not do it? Bluntness can sometimes come across as being rude, and that is not necessarily benficial to this fandom in all cases either.

Just pointing out so we dont get the wrong idea from all this. In all other aspects i agree with what has been said here.

 

[VaNexuS]

OK! Now to clear some things up that may be a bit confusing with the points of this thread, in reference to @oteto and @Buck;
- I do believe that complimenting someone on their work is different than sugarcoating... .. Honestly, if you're not gonna give someone advice.. or well, critique, well, you're gonna give them your thoughts right? //Given you want to and/or have been asked, but regardless! If you happen to like someone's work, then yes, let them know! But its another point entirely to give them advice and critique and help them improve such works...!

- BEING BLUNT IS BY NO MEANS HONESTY'S EQUIVALENT. .. I meant this when saying one must use tact and be considerate of the other user... So yes, if someone must say something flat out, doesn't make it //just flat out rude//, but to an individual who may or may not even handle critique well, it can sting a little.. It's just a matter of taking what's given and making the BEST of it... So, it's a very good thing to know and have some judgement on when to be blunt, but really, it's just better overall to take the other into consideration when saying what you do.. Meaning, DO NOT SUGAR COAT and //DO NOT// encourage petty behaviors such as >lashing out >personal attacks and acts of the like >just flat out pouting. ... If you really wanna help someone, then put some effort to push them to make their own; If you really want to improve, then put some effort into your time and consider all suggestions. We can't help you if you don't want to help yourself.

But alas, the point I wanna make, is just- BE SUPPORTIVE..! If you can only give compliments.. then please do.. but.. do not blindly say something is AMAZING when it can obviously be taken to a much further level... There are different ways to be supportive and give compliments as there are giving advice and critique! So, either route you choose, just please take the time and effort to be considerate and supportive.. It may not always be the easiest, but it will go a long way.. Especially without all the dilution and sugarcoating...!

 

[IrisFlower]

Alright, I skipped a lot of your posts because they are like walls of text with no breaks?? And they were starting to hurt my eyes. So if I repeat something without knowing it my apologies but mama Iris's eyes aren't what they used to be...ever. They...I have horrible eyesight lol xD

Spoiler

Anyway, sugarcoating is bad, yes, I agree with that. But I purposefully want to repeat the Blunt =/= Honesty sentiment though. Because just like there are people in this fandom who sugarcoat everything? There are people who are so unnecessarily blunt and mean to people it's scary. And then they get confused when people are not receptive to what they have to say; and overall those types of people need to be addressed too along with the sugarcoaters. I also feel like the effects of sugarcoating can be reversed more so than the effects of unnecessary bluntness but that's something else for another time.

But when I was in school? None of my professors sugarcoated true, but they weren't rudely blunt either. They told you what you were doing right and why it was right but they also told you what you were doing wrong and how to fix it to make it better in a way that felt like you could do what they said successfully. If someone asks for a critique and all you have to say is "Yeah this is not good try again."? Period? Nothing else but telling them it's bad? Mayhaps walk away until you can come up with a few good things to say about their work too or at the very least be gentle but firm. Like Adlez's example? Yeah that's a good example.

Most people, especially young people, are very resistant to bluntness and negativity overall. Like...humankind as a whole. Catch more flies with honey and all that jazz. People just don't react to the negative well and when it's all they hear?? You're disturbing a hornets nest with a sledgehammer.

And a lot of people in this fandom are not professionals by any stretch of the imagination nor do they plan on making a career out of this and I think it's easy to forget that when you've been here a while. They're people who saw a cute anime character dancing around and singing and thought "Free program? I want to do that!" So they probably haven't experienced a real good critique session, either. So it's understandable they might a) make a lot of amateur mistakes and b) get defensive when presented with negative comments. And bluntness is just not going to alleviate any of that. At all.

Sugarcoating is going to cause someone to make a fool out of themselves by continuing to make the same mistakes over again sure. But bluntness can cause people to quit and make them feel horrible about themselves when it's not necessary and could be avoided.

You can soften the blow of your critique with a nice comment without sugarcoating...likewise you can critique without being an ass, ya feel me? Deliver the good with the bad in a supportive, encouraging, and patient way. If someone still isn't receptive to the negative? Try a few more times and explain yourself a bit more clearly don't just throw in the towel and go off on them!

If after that they still don't want to hear it and act like a brat? Walk away and give your efforts to someone else. Leave that person to deal with their own self.

TL;DR Sugarcoating is bad. But so is being unnecessarily rude and blunt. Pretty much with Nexus on this...Be supportive, encouraging, and patient. And remember not everyone is here to be a super big star.

I should update that resource haha xD It gets the point across but yeah...I'll get on that eventually D: